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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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WELL SAID DOUG...
Domingo & Mtnyoung...now it's not hearsay!!!
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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thanks for the reply Doug, it goes a long way to explaining the dynamics driving the choices that were made by the FA team. Style is a choice, and when we make that choice we are fully prepared to be judged by others in the community. But the adventure has been had by the FA and the excitement of the whole thing shared by the FA with the community. We get to go and repeat it, in small part, anytime we want, that is our choice.
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socalbolter
Sport climber
Silverado, CA
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Thanks for posting Doug.
With the movie project out of the way prior to the bolting of the upper half, I'm firmly back on the side of admiring the route and those that established it.
Maybe there was some sponsorship pressure or media intentions still, but when they walked away they left what looks to be an amazing line. One that appeals greatly to me, and one that will likely be repeated far sooner and more often than its neighbors.
As I said prior in this thread, the manner in which the bolts were installed (rap or GU) means less to me than the fact that they are properly positioned in respect to the climbing. I also would be saddened if the protection consisted of body-length bolt spans, but that doesn't sound like it's the case either (30-foot runouts?).
Looking forward to a repeat ascent and the resulting feedback. This could be the type of route I'd like to go and climb...
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Fatty wrote
"This route smacks of "gotta have a long FA on my resume", maybe this section of HD should never see an ascent. I'm voting for removal."
These guys have been around long enough to know they could have got better kudos from simply climbing the Arch free and calling it good. This was public service.
This kind of debate has been going on a long time in climbing and it's good for us. Perhaps it helps us grow as much as climbing itself to see how we think, how others think, and how we understand and misunderstand each other.
I'll agree to disagree Fatty. This November I'll also be voting for removal
peace
Karl
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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Thanks again for posting Doug. I'm impressed that you stay pretty close to being pure information without getting wrapped around the axle.
I still don't agree with "Death route spiral" and number of repeats being the goal. Nor do I buy the idea that you and Sean did it for "us".
I thought the climbing community historically has always had great admiration for routes that took commitment and great bravery to establish. Few repeats was something that was admired and became part of the legend, something for the new generation of climbers to wonder whether they had the guts for.
Edit: Karl Baba wrote: "This November I'll also be voting for removal." (Speaking of politicians, not bolts)Now that I like a lot!!
Edit: Thank goodness the top isn't so accessible to rap off of in some places.
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adventurewagen
Trad climber
Seattle
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Ihateplastic - When I said everything was "climbed out" I didn't mean literally. Geez. Take a deep breath and move away from the keyboard.
My point was just that for many climbers today there aren't nearly as many gems left out there in the easy to access or obvious places. I know for a fact if I had the time I could hit up Patagonia and put up a few FA's there. My buddies just got back from a couple months of putting up new FA's. Right on Fitzroy even!
Obviously as the population grows and the weather changes we'll continue to expand further and further into nature until that once far off crag is a mere 10 minutes from down town. I'm just saying that unless you climb 5.hard or happen to live next to an untapped crag the number of easily accessible and obvious lines that are climbable by normal humans is lower than it was.
I'm just saying for an overwhelming percentage of the population we are left climbing in the footsteps of the grand dads that were lucky enough to be around during the birth of hard climbing and until I quit my job and move to some unknown crag or start climbing 5.14 I don't see an endless supply of FA's for me to choose my own style. I can only hope those people with the time and skill do the right thing.
So you wanna go tick that climb or not? I'll take pitch 1-10.
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Tez
Mountain climber
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Thanks for posting Doug. Climbing ground up until natural protection features ran out and then completing it by inspection from above is good form in my book.
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caughtinside
Social climber
Davis, CA
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What about all those sick strong euros who show up every spring and freeclimb the big walls. Do they get to vote on this?
They'll probably just onsight it.
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golsen
Social climber
kennewick, wa
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DR said,
"Now this next part is starting to feel ironic in light of the crap some of you want to dump on us: we did it for you. We did it for the future. We did it as an alternative to the death-route spiral the South Face had been in. We did it for choice. You can still choose Southern Belle, sack up and face the consequences. My big respect goes to you if you make that choice, as it goes to Coz and Schultz for putting it up. But now there's another possible choice. And this choice will likely get climbed more. I hope its a lot. That stellar terrain deserves to be felt."
Thanks for posting. I remember using nearly this exact language to Mugs Stump about a route I rapp and drilled on a cliff he liked nearly 20 years ago. He called BS on my response and after 20 years I do think he is right.
In other words if you are climbing for anything or anyone other than yourself maybe it is the wrong reason? If you are placing a bolt for anyone other than yourself, should you?
Not throwing smack your way just a different viewpoint...I dont give a sh&& one way or the other about your route and the style it was done in. But I do question the validity of the argument as it could be used for all manner of "un-ethical" impacts to the rock.
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Brian in SLC
Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
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I remember using nearly this exact language to Mugs Stump about a route I rapp and drilled on a cliff he liked nearly 20 years ago. He called BS on my response and after 20 years I do think he is right.
You're not referring to Hellgate, by chance?
http://www.mountainproject.com/v/utah/wasatch_range/little_cottonwood_canyon/105739780
Geez, there's what, near 60 routes up there now? Great summertime hot weather venue, even though the rock ain't the greatest.
And, really, if you're placing a bolt considering climbers coming after you, why isn't that a valid reason, if that's what's important to you? I mean, the logic here being, if you're climbing for you, and leaving something for other's to enjoy is important to you, then...
I don't know. You could take this to the next level and just never report any of your ascents too. Then, every one gets an FA.
What it sometimes boils down to is style and ego, which seem intertwined at times.
Anyhoo, great to hear from you Gary. Maybe this summer, when its too hot to climb down low on the beloved granite of Little Cottonwood, we'll see you sniffin' around Hellgate, Alta, Devil's Castle...
-Brian in SLC
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golsen
Social climber
kennewick, wa
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Yeah Brian,
All in all, I hope the FA guys got out of it what they wanted. It sounds like they did.
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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One last post from me as it has been a fine discussion for the most part and nothing much more for me to add...
Sean and Doug...sounds like a great route, thanks for thinking about future parties, thanks for the effort (over three months) of work that it took and Doug thanks for your honest and open posts on the route.
It not easy being a dartboard but that's what happens when you jump out of the circle and actually do something that goes against the grain.
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Gene
climber
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Now this next part is starting to feel ironic in light of the crap some of you want to dump on us: we did it for you. We did it for the future. We did it as an alternative to the death-route spiral the South Face had been in. We did it for choice. You can still choose Southern Belle, sack up and face the consequences. My big respect goes to you if you make that choice, as it goes to Coz and Schultz for putting it up. But now there's another possible choice. And this choice will likely get climbed more. I hope its a lot. That stellar terrain deserves to be felt.
The future has a funny habit of showing up real soon in the Valley. The history of climbing in the Valley is full of examples of the past generation's last greatest problem is this year's trade route. As far as the SFHD, why not keep the bar high?
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Y'all try to remember that Doug and Sean are not two neophyte yeyhoos from a rock gym with a wild hair and dreams of glory.
They have been around, cut their chops and paid their dues. I am assuming but fairly sure they put as much if not more thought into this route than most FAs. If to some of you it represents a hard to accept seemingly hypocritical about face of ethics for Doug, well who of the long lived climbers hasn't changed or modified their approaches to ascent as they were "growing up"?
When I was young and a 'real' climber the ethos of the day were; onsight, ground up, all clean, no chalk, no fixed gear, no bolts, no hangs, no falls. Anything less was aid climbing. If I remember correctly that same ethos eshewed sticky rubber and cams when they came out. Well the ethos of today is far different than before.
Now not only do I have sticky sticky shoes and cams but I chalk when I don't need to, gladly clip bolts when they are there and hang to rest to avoid falling. My younger me would have disdaned the older me but I am still enjoying the experience.
Is that wrong or should I be burned at the stake as a heretic?
Prehaps I have no place in this discussion as I have never done a Half Dome Route. Though I have always wanted to! Or prehaps because I have only placed three bolts in my life. Two hand drilled on lead from natural stances on I Can't Believe it's a Girdle. And the third after rapping nearly 1000' down the Goss Logan to replace the blown crux bolt. Something about the thought of smashing into the dihedral after the 5.11 traverse had me alter my ethical high ground for the sake of doing the job right. And yes the understanding that scores and scores of others would pass that way after me played a big role in the decision. But who out there would or wouldn't climb either of those routes based solely on the ethics of previous ascents?
Enthusiasts are still coveting routes like the Hallucinogen even though it has been subdued by post FA fixed gear. Should that route be retro chopped to it's original FA conditions so that others may enjoy the terror? Or are the routes themselves expressions of the evolving nature and ethos of climbing as a whole? Taking over a month to establish now the Hallucinogen has been climbed in under eight hours and nearly freed except for some revolutionary mixed climbing. Due in no small part to the current festooning of retro bolts and fixed gear. What are we to make of these shifts to our paradigm.
Now that I have been outed as a hang doggin', chalk swillin', retro rap boltin' hypocrit I ask only that you wait to see what a few on sight ascents have to report about this new route before you grab the pitch forks and light the torches.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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400 easy!
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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I believe that the purest form of climbing is a ground up first ascent, placing all equipment en route, and minimizing impacts on the natural environment of the cliff i.e. cleaning, bolts. Also generally minimizing impacts on the human and natural environments, being completely honest with ourselves and others about what we've done, and remembering how fortunate we are to engage in our antics. These are ideals we should all aspire to, that are consistent with the traditions of our community, and the centrality of risk and adventure to what we do.
I am interested in the larger picture - I mentioned way upthread the way in which others might see the route, how it was established, and our debate about it. Doug brought up some other wide perspective issues - though if we do get lots more people hiking up Half Dome and getting the glad tidings, it not only makes work for Werner, it may lead to more idiots throwing rocks off...
When the thread got to 327 posts, I quickly looked at all of them. 216 posts were by males - that is, people I'm sure are males. Known quantities. 108 posts I wasn't sure about. I don't have the time to check, but I'm reasonably sure that most of them are males. (Not sure about BURT BRONSON, though.) One post was identifiably by a female. Perhaps a few of the pen names that I'm not sure about are also females, but clearly a tiny minority of the posters are female.
All of which suggests some interesting things about adolescent male sociology. I'd guess the climbing community is now perhaps 2/3 male, 1/3 female. SuperTopia may be a bit more skewed towards males - perhaps 75:25. Given all this, it's ironic that the route name is Growing Up.
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Chewbongka
climber
लघिमा
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MIGHTY HIKER IS ON TO US!!!
EVERBODY SCATTER!!!
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WandaFuca
Gym climber
San Fernando Lamas
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Thank you Doug and Sean Disney.
Now can you go back up and drill holes for rebar and concrete ledges with beer cozies? Can you cut a better path to the base and put in a barbecue for when we get there? Then could you cut-out 8x11x1 spaces at each belay for inset and sealed, weather-proof, lexan-covered route history/topo pages at each belay?
Maybe others have even better suggestions for improvements to make the route more user-friendly. Hey, come to think of it, if you were doing it for us, why didn't you get suggestions and take a poll and run it through a commitee and take a vote before you made this route for us?
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Ihateplastic
Trad climber
Lake Oswego, Oregon
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Doug... "...we did it for you. We did it for the future."
I have no words to express my gratitude.
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nick d
Trad climber
nm
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Perhaps the most amusing posts in this thread have been the shrill cries about chopping it. Fattrad doesn't look like he could even waddle to the base, much less do any of the actual climbing involved to get up there.
So choppers, gonna chop on the lead? Or are you gonna have to rap in to do the deed?
Is that any different?
Chopping a route on rap, all about the ego boost, none of the challenge of actually climbing a route.
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