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jstan
climber
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Dec 10, 2009 - 11:53am PT
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Jan's post is too good to let its readership suffer due to running off the page.
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In answer to an evolutionary question about language and the brain. I am not familiar with
language development in children as my interest has always been in the cross cultural aspects of
language. What I can tell you is this:
-human beings are born with a genetically programmed grammar already in our brains. This has
been proven from studies of how pijin languages become creoles and the personal languages
sometimes invented by identical twins. In all cases, the grammar has similar rules, even if the
base language is different. French, English, and Spanish based creoles are the best studied so far
however.
-this innate grammar is also present to some degree in the great apes as well, since they can all
be taught sign language and are bilingual in both signs and heard English (trainer speaks in
English and ape responds with the appropriate sign.
-the area for hand movement and language is close in the brain and they appear related. People
remember words better if they exercise hand movements (any kind) while memorizing word lists.
Anthropologists speculate that hand signals came first, then sounds, then words with grammar
were added later. Very young children take to sign language well before they can form words.
-the languages that we speak are superimposed on our innate grammar, usually by our mothers,
hence "mother tongue". We also learn our accents from our mothers while still in the womb. A
recent study found that German newborns cry with a falling tone and French with a rising tone
similar to the cadence of their respective mother's language.
-Children can learn several languages before age five, but generally need to learn only one first,
before proceeding to the others. How they think about language is illustrated in a funny story
from Swedish parents living in Germany. They spoke Swedish to the child at home, and the child
spoke perfect German at kindergarten. When the family vacationed in Sweden, the child spoke
Swedish to all the adults and tried to speak only German to the Swedish children.
-True bilingualism happens only if the language is learned before the age of five.
-if a child does not learn to speak by age five, they can not because the neural connections for
language in the brain are rigid by then.
-Speaking is done from the left hemisphere, and singing and swearing from the right
hemisphere. Some people with strokes can not even say their name but can still swear because of
this phenomenon because swearing and strong emotions are connected.
-For the same reason people in comas have been known to sing church music at their own last
rites when they could not speak to the priest.
I do not know, but I suspect that children learn language either bit by bit, or as whole sentences
depending on whether they are primarily left or right brain in their orientation. Certainly that's
why some children learn to read better with the phonics bit by bit left brain method and others
by the more visual look and see sentence fragments method.
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago
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Dec 10, 2009 - 12:33pm PT
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Jan- "If they were Catholic, the Priests told them what was in the Bible..."
The Priest told them the basic Gospel story of the virgin birth, the death and resurrection of Christ. All of which was common knowledge among the people. Actually, the Priest did little teaching. That was, and still is, done by laymen/lay teachers, and nuns to this day.
I went to a Catholic church and on Saturday's attended what they refer to as catechism. This was my choice from the age of 9-13. I already new Christ through a personal invitation and conversion at 8 yrs old, and I new of no other church that recognised Jesus as Savior at that time.
I learned from young high-school girls and nuns. The priest had little interaction among the average congregants, unless you were going to PAY them for a specific mass for a loved one in a so called purgatory etc. Jesus NEVER taught such pathetic lies.
The priests taught us nothing. On Sunday they lead a ritualistic mass(traditions of man/not God) that was concocted by the early church, and was far from worship and teaching as Christ and the New Testament prescribed. To begin it was all in Latin.
They did not use the Bible in there Sunday school or on Saturdays or any other day. They used what is called a catechism. A book loaded with false doctrines such as Purgatory and the priests as intermediaries between man and God, salvation through baptism, etc. etc. etc.
They continue to withhold the Bible, or down play its importance to this day. All Catholics are convinced(including members of my immediate family)that their entrance into Heaven is secured because they were baptised Catholic as babies, and have confessed their sins to priests.
Jesus Christ is the only intermediary between man and God. You confess to Him and He intercedes. The Catholic church is an abomination and a lie.
Jan, yes they were illiterate, could not read, but they had ears!!!
The Catholic church fed them lies, and built a religion/organization of false doctrines and lies, and created a religious/political dogma that was authoritative, in which the least divergence was met with swift suppression and accusations of heresy.
I was told at an early age, 9-10 yrs old, that if I even went into another denominations church I would go to hell. They were very strict about such things.
The twelve apostles and Mary(the mother of Jesus)are no different than us, and that is what the scriptures teach. They cannot intercede for us. Praying to them is praying to an idol/idol worship.
They have lead literally billions away from the truth straight to hell.
Once again Jan, I am fully aware of the Gutenberg press, and the lack of the written Words availability to the common man prior to it. They used this to their advantage. They could have read and taught scripture, but they were determined to suppress the truth and teach lies and dogma.
So it IS correct that they kept the Word of God(The Bible)the spoken Word from the people, and they continue to do so to this day. My sister believes what they insinuate...that "The Bible is for the priests, and they will teach us what is necessary."
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Dec 10, 2009 - 12:38pm PT
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777 wrote
" I truly doubt if any of the Popes(or many Catholic priests) will be found in Heaven!"
Where will they be and for how long?
If Jesus is God, how do you explain that his message was mostly spread by Paul, who never met Jesus and was actually present at the stoning of a Christian? How would you explain that God's only church for well over 1000 years was the very one you consider sinful? If protestant ideology had been given total dominion from the year 300, do you really think there would have been no inquisitions or conquering of natives?
Worshipping a book might be idolotry like worshipping Saints. (I'm not saying either is right or wrong)
I think it's disingenuous to consider every development in the history of religion that you agree with to have been inspired by God (perhaps the reformation and so on) but blame man on everything you don't.
How about sincere but mistaken pastors and believers from other denominations (ones you might not agree with?) Where do they go?
Seems like Hell has a serious overpopulation problem. Why didn't God make us a little more carefully if he planned on tossing us to torture so easily?
Careful
Peace
Karl
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago
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Dec 10, 2009 - 01:07pm PT
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Karl!
I am going by what they teach. And what they taught me. I already went over that. According to Christ there is only one way to the Father...through Him. Not through baptism. And certainly not by paying a priest to pray them out of a purgatory.
And it takes more than a simple acknowledgement that you believe He is God. "For even the demons believe He is God." Jesus says "You must be born again".
There are priests, nuns and Catholics in general that have come to that realization, that you need to have a personal relationship with Christ. I've met some(I did so at eight myself). And there are the "charismatic Catholics" who believe it is necessary to confess that you are a sinner and personally except Christ as their Savior. You can not get into Heaven upon your own merits. "all have fallen short...".
We are expected to follow His teachings and walk in the good works that He leads us to, and expects us to accomplish. But that alone will not get anyone into Heaven. If it could, His death would have been in vain/not necessary!!
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago
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Dec 10, 2009 - 01:27pm PT
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Karl!
I spread His message and have never met Him in the flesh!!
Paul had a conversion on the road to Damascus and was excepted by all of the other Apostles as an equal. I personally believe(as did the twelve apostles)that Paul had a personal revelation from God/Jesus.
The four Gospels are the main body and Paul adheres to them and the Old Testament teachings in regards to the fulfillment of Christ as the Messiah. I don't have a problem with Paul whatsoever. I regard his letters to the early church as instruction in sound doctrine.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Dec 10, 2009 - 01:40pm PT
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777 writes
"I spread His message and have never met Him in the flesh!!"
With Love and due respect, I submit that you spend more time spreading Paul's message than that of Jesus. Jesus preached love, compassion, non-judgement and forgiveness. Why teach people to love and forgive their enemies on earth when he (as God) would be all about the worst possible punishment and torture for far lesser offenses?
If you spread the message of a God who is in the business of condemning people to eternal suffering for "crimes" like "Not believing" or being mistaken about Religion, then I'm afraid I feel that both you and Paul would have benefited from learning from Jesus directly.
There is a biblical record of disagreements between Paul and the actual apostles. If Osama Bin Laden said he had a revelation and started preaching Christianity, would you consider him to speak for Jesus?
Peace
Karl
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago
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Dec 10, 2009 - 01:41pm PT
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Karl- "but blame man on everything you don't"
There is another character that is being left out of the picture, and since the beginning of creation has been deceiving us!! Let's not leave him out. And he will play a very big part in the development of religion(a one world religion)in the not so distant future. Perhaps you will witness it.
By the way, Satan loves religion. Just as long as you are not Christian and Spirit filled.
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slayton
Trad climber
Here and There
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Dec 10, 2009 - 01:44pm PT
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For anyone who cares to check it out there is a very good show on PBS Frontline about the early history of Christianity from the first teachings of Jesus up to the creation of the church in Rome. Just watched it online last night. Very interesting.
Cheers,
Sean
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago
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Dec 10, 2009 - 01:55pm PT
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Karl!
We have gone over this before. I spread Christ's message in regard to eternity. And have spent over forty years of my life simply telling people of Gods love for them and of Jesus death and resurrection. I rarely speak of Hell!
You, and others here are the ones who continue to bring up Hell and eternity...I simply respond to what Christ preaches in regard to a literal Hell. I can not even recall any quotes made by Paul regarding Hell(not saying there are none).
You do admit there is such a place do you not? Jesus spoke of it three times more than He did of Heaven!!
I spend much more time speaking of the thousand year reign of Christ here on earth after His return with all of His believers. This forum is not even 1/1000th of what I have done over the years and now to spread the Word!!
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Dec 10, 2009 - 02:01pm PT
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Here's a link to that Frontline program
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/religion/
777, we can agree to disagree on dogma. I encourage you to continue to remain open to the messages of Spirit and a fresh reading of what Jesus taught, rather than common interpretations of such
Peace
Karl
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago
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Dec 10, 2009 - 02:13pm PT
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BASE104- "shame on...".
I did not say anyone was going to hell above, I said I do not believe you are going to find many of the Priests etc. that I saw and heard in Heaven!!!
I was going by what Jesus preached. A man reading out of the Bible will not get Him into Heaven. It is what the "economical approach" to Christianity is about. Satan quoted the Bible to Jesus!!
I think it was a good thing what the priest did. It is what they are instructed to do in hospitals(I've worked in any)and at various ceremony's, weddings, funerals etc. It is in regards to salvation that I am speaking.
You are shaming Jesus Christ, for He spoke of the correct way to worship and know Him.
Believe what you want. A little of this, a little of that(the ecumenical way). But I would suggest reading the gospel of John for yourself before you go around shaming followers of Christ for stating what He preached.
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago
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Dec 10, 2009 - 02:21pm PT
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Karl!
Thanks for the link, I will take a look at it know and over the next few days(looks like a lot to digest).
And I suggest you do likewise with a "fresh reading" of one of the Gospels(as will I). It would do us all some good!
Peace, Trip~
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Norton
Social climber
the Middle Class
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 10, 2009 - 02:28pm PT
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"Ardi" is the nickname given to a shattered skeleton that an international team of scientists painstakingly excavated from the Ethiopian desert, analyzed over the course of 15 years, and declared Thursday to be a major breakthrough in the study of human origins. Ardi lived more than a million years before "Lucy," a much-celebrated, 3.2 million-year-old fossil of an early human progenitor found just 45 miles away.
If the scientists are correct, Ardi and her kind were the ancestors of our ancestors. She was a transitional figure, almost a hybrid -- a tree creature who could carry food in her arms as she explored the woodland floor on two legs.
The skeletal remnants of Ardi were recovered along with bones from at least 35 other members of a species that the scientists call Ardipithecus ramidus. Their arduous investigation had incited grumbling in a scientific community that had grown impatient to find out what exactly had been found in the silty clay of Ethiopia. The answers are dramatic, detailed in 11 papers published Thursday in the online edition of the journal Science and discussed in dual press conferences in Washington and Addis Ababa, Ethiopia.
The discovery of Ardi "further confirms that Ethiopia is the cradle of humankind," said Yohannes Haile-Selassie, the paleontologist who found the first two bones of Ardi in 1994.
We KNOW there were modern HUMANS at least 200,000 years ago.
WHY did THEY get screwed and have NO shot at an afterlife?
WHEN does Christianity say the guy in the sky reached down and
"gave" a SOUL to humans?
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Brian Hench
Trad climber
Anaheim, CA
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Dec 10, 2009 - 02:47pm PT
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I would imagine Cro Magnon man would have to enter Purgatory where he would then be educated concerning salvation. Right, Norton?
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago
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Dec 10, 2009 - 04:07pm PT
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BASE104- "excepting Christ in your heart".
Exactly, that is it and the Catholic church does not teach this, GET IT BASE-BUDDY?
I grew up in the Catholic church, that is what I was alluding to. Jesus said you must be born again OK!
You are welcome to your own opinion, but before you start shaming what Christ teaches you should look into what I was criticizing in regards to the Catholic religion.
EDIT: You should go back a couple of months ago and read what I said in regards to Tobin Sorenson and that very same quote!! Faith, Hope, and Love.
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Bronwyn
Trad climber
Not of This World
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Dec 10, 2009 - 04:14pm PT
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Base,
I am sorry to hear that your mom is in such serious circumstances.
My thoughts and prayers are with both of you.
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Bronwyn
Trad climber
Not of This World
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Dec 10, 2009 - 04:23pm PT
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Norton,
How we do know those early humans didn't have a soul?
Whether you believe in Creation in seven days, or evolving Creationism, whatever, God does not condemn anyone for what they do not know.
Therefore, those pre-historic people (or however you would care to refer to them) would be given the covering of Christ's grace, and would not be condemned.
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Dec 10, 2009 - 04:50pm PT
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"Rational arguments don't usually work on religious people. Otherwise, there wouldn't be religious people."
-Doris Egan
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 10, 2009 - 05:12pm PT
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Inside my heart is only blood gushing.
Inside my body is only pus guts and stool.
Some DNA too.
Where the fuk is this so called LOVE inside me?????
The scientist never told me nor found any so called LOVE.
It's a conspiracy ........
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago
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Dec 10, 2009 - 05:39pm PT
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BASE104!
To be honest, I am not sure what the Catholic Church is teaching these days. In regards to the statement I made up-thread I had in mind a particular church or two that I and my family attended back in the late 1950's and early 1960's. In retrospect it is a rather harsh statement to make in regards to the Pope's and priests but it is exactly what they teach in regards to the Mormons, Methodist and Lutherans that you mentioned up-thread(or at least they did in the early 1960's).
I guess I am a little concerned about my older sister, who takes what we learned back then as truth. She and my other sister were baptised as babies, and she believes that is what will get her into Heaven. That is what the Catholic church taught us back then. That all other religions WERE going to Hell. And that my sister was going to Heaven because a priest sprinkled "holy" water on her head at the age of two. She is still convinced. I was simply stating that it is not what Jesus teaches in the Gospels.
And she believes that other religions have their own way to God. Jesus says otherwise BASE!! And it is an act of LOVE, not hate, to point out the truth. And the obvious false teachings of the Catholic church that we knew.
I am also sorry to here about your mothers condition. I know it must be difficult for you at this time. My father had a major stroke and lived for eighteen months before he passed away. We were there every other day attending to him. It was very difficult, especially towards the end.
EDIT: I thought Skip was/is a Catholic??
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