Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
Lynne Leichtfuss
Social climber
valley center, ca
|
|
|
Aug 30, 2008 - 12:13am PT
|
Like the last two pics. Great color in Werners...not to sure abut organized snakes...kinda like them one on one with me in the wild.
drgonzo, classic...
So, what about a person that simply believes god created...no specific time frame is important cause it really can't be proven... like one and one makes two can be proven.
Why is the time frame so important ? What am I missing?
Can't a creationist simply believe god created ? Lynnie
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
|
Aug 30, 2008 - 01:01am PT
|
Believing is all right but proof must ultimately be there.
The proof that the Supreme Lord created the whole cosmic manifestation exists. The materialists are too lazy and too stubborn to seriously seek it out. They want to do everything independently, not knowing that they are controlled by the very force they are trying to be independent of.
In order to understand God one must submit to him just as the materialists are force to submit to material natures superior power.
Even the materialists can not ultimately prove any of their theories and thus they remain perpetually bound in their fruitative activities which cast them further and further from the real truth.
|
|
dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
|
|
|
Aug 30, 2008 - 01:56am PT
|
Werner, how can you be so obtuse?
Do you even understand what PROOF is?
I think not, from how you write about it.
|
|
Lynne Leichtfuss
Social climber
valley center, ca
|
|
|
Aug 30, 2008 - 02:18am PT
|
Dirt in eye, WBraun is anything but obtuse. We need to get on the same page if possible ....don't know if syntactics is the word...I think another one is better but can't recall.....
If we get on the same page,,,,playing ground,,,, we can at least share ideas and really listen to each other. Lots to learn and think about.
I don't know if I concur with all that WBraun thinks and feels, but I have never sat down and discussed.....so we all need to withhold judgement and get together.....hey dirtineye...any chance you can go to facelift ?
|
|
Lynne Leichtfuss
Social climber
valley center, ca
|
|
|
Aug 30, 2008 - 02:28am PT
|
Sheee, finally thought of the word....semantics which is the study of meanings ...people can say something and you can interpret it entirely differently from what they are trying to convey.
I've seen this on the Taco causing bombs to explode.
|
|
dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
|
|
|
Aug 30, 2008 - 03:39am PT
|
"Believing is all right but proof must ultimately be there.
The proof that the Supreme Lord created the whole cosmic manifestation exists. The materialists are too lazy and too stubborn to seriously seek it out. They want to do everything independently, not knowing that they are controlled by the very force they are trying to be independent of. "
NO Lynne, sorry, this stuff is utter NONSENSE.
If you can't see that, you're just as bad.
It would be better to say you have to take it on faith and faith alone, than to make the moronic claims that Werner makes.
|
|
coward
Trad climber
Boulder, Wyoming
|
|
|
Aug 30, 2008 - 10:42am PT
|
Yes, Werner seems to be somewhat of a mystic.
It seems like you've got to have some "faith" that there's actually some sense in much of what he writes.
It's like a poem that's really out there. You have to read it like three times to "get" the jist of it, and then it's only because you've somehow convinced yourself that there is actually something to what he is saying.
Werner, come down here maannn....don't you get dizzy in the clouds?
|
|
coward
Trad climber
Boulder, Wyoming
|
|
|
Aug 30, 2008 - 10:59am PT
|
Oh, one more thing - you guys aren't actually convinced that modern concepts of morality BEGAN with the Bible and religion, are you? All in one fell stroke, human beings learned the wise ways of Jesus? Please...
Perhaps beliefs themselves went through an evolution of sorts...not to say that they all stemmed from one single overarching belief (as Werner would assume, maybe?)
Anyway, for any person to presume that they know how matters of this sort worked absolutely are simply full of sh#t. No scientist would make a claim to have an exact idea of how things went down...unless they were religious fruits of course!
|
|
Lynne Leichtfuss
Social climber
valley center, ca
|
|
|
Aug 31, 2008 - 12:58pm PT
|
Good morning ST,
You know what blows my mind is the fact that people on ST want our govt. to sit down at the table with the UN and the mideast and try to resolve the problems and conflicts peacefully.
Yet, when one espouses their thoughts, ideas and beliefs on ST there's all kinds of attacks and name calling. I just pretend you're all kidding when that happens. : )
Think I smell a double standard here. Opinions and belief's should be applied to all aspects of one's life, not just to "W".
What's SCARY is that I am actually beginning to understand what WBraun is saying....I think !?
|
|
andanother
climber
|
|
|
Aug 31, 2008 - 02:49pm PT
|
Believing is all right but proof must ultimately be there.
The proof that the Supreme Lord created the whole cosmic manifestation will never exist. The creationists are too lazy and too stubborn to seriously seek it out. They don't want to do anything independently, because there is too much comfort in the herd mentality.
In order to understand "god" one must deny him and grow up, just as children must eventually start a life of their own, seperate from their parents protective shell.
The creationists can not ultimately prove any of their theories and thus they remain perpetually bound in their fruitative activities which cast them further and further from the real truth.
|
|
nature
climber
Santa Fe, NM
|
|
|
Aug 31, 2008 - 06:09pm PT
|
werner has proof... it's just... well... semantics. his definition of proof just doesn't match "our" definition of proof....
at all...
Om namah shivaya
edit: and oh.... I'm alright with the idea of supreme conciousness - non-dualism seems to be working for me... but... the thing is... I have no way to prove there's such a thing as proof so the ultimate reality of it all is you can't prove anything.... except well... I guess... unless you are werner? I mean hey... my very existence proves nothing.. cuz like... you can't prove I exist... Am I really here?
It depends....
|
|
drgonzo
Trad climber
east bay, CA
|
|
|
Aug 31, 2008 - 06:43pm PT
|
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
|
Aug 31, 2008 - 06:55pm PT
|
drgonzo
Hiranyakasipu tried that too, but he failed.
|
|
Lynne Leichtfuss
Social climber
valley center, ca
|
|
|
Aug 31, 2008 - 07:46pm PT
|
Nature, "am I really here ?" Ask Ed H. he'll know. : )
Coward, I guess it's not important for me to search and know the beginning of life or the beginning of morality. No one seems to be able to prove the beginnings to anyones satisfaction anyway.
They both exist, life and morality. I take all the information I can find and apply it to how I live my life and how I can positively impact the lives of people around me. To me that is supremely important in this short life.
Both Evolutionists and Creationists present what they believe are facts. I take their information and weigh it. If it fits in the puzzle of life and what makes sense and what works for my beliefs and life, I keep the info.
I was raised with the notion that there is absolutely no evolution. Read and learned about threshold evolution ....incorporated into my belief system.
To me, proof that it is god that creates are things like the earth, wind, the universe which seems endless....the human body....especially the eyeball and so much more.
To me it takes more faith to believe that everything evolved.
And OBTW, I separated from my parents. But they were great parents so I don't deny them.
Peace and Joy, Lynne
|
|
Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - May 27, 2009 - 09:22pm PT
|
Science News
Common Ancestor Of Humans, Modern Primates? 'Extraordinary' Fossil Is 47 Million Years Old
ScienceDaily (May 19, 2009) — Scientists have found a 47-million-year-old human ancestor. Discovered in Messel Pit, Germany, the fossil, described as Darwinius masillae, is 20 times older than most fossils that explain human evolution.
See also:
Known as “Ida,” the fossil is a transitional species – it shows characteristics from the very primitive non-human evolutionary line (prosimians, such as lemurs), but is more related to the human evolutionary line (anthropoids, such as monkeys, apes and humans). At 95% complete, the fossil provides the most complete understanding of the paleobiology of any Eocene primate so far discovered.
The scientists’ findings are published in PLoS One, the open-access, peer-reviewed journal from the Public Library of Science.
For the past two years, an international team of scientists, led by world-renowned Norwegian fossil scientist Dr Jørn Hurum, University of Oslo Natural History Museum, has secretly conducted a detailed forensic analysis of the extraordinary fossil, studying the data to decode humankind’s ancient origins. At 95% complete, Ida is set to revolutionize our understanding of primate evolution.
"This is the first link to all humans ... truly a fossil that links world heritage," said Dr. Hurum.
"It’s really a kind of Rosetta Stone," commented study co-author Professor Philip Gingerich, of the Museum of Paleontology at the University of Michigan.
The fossil was apparently discovered in 1983 by private collectors who split and eventually sold two parts of the skeleton on separate plates: the lesser part was restored and, in the process, partly fabricated to make it look more complete. This part was eventually purchased for a private museum in Wyoming, and then described by one of the authors (Jens L. Franzen) who recognized the fabrication. The more complete part has just come to light, and it now belongs to the Natural History Museum of the University of Oslo (Norway). The PLoS ONE paper describes the study that resulted from finally having access to the complete fossil specimen.
Unlike Lucy and other famous primate fossils found in Africa’s Cradle of Mankind, Ida is a European fossil, preserved in Germany’s Messel Pit, the mile-wide crater and oil-rich shale is a significant site for fossils of the Eocene Epoch. Fossil analysis reveals that the prehistoric primate was a young female. Opposable big toes and nail bearing tips on the fingers and toes confirm the fossil is a primate, and a foot bone called the talus bone links Ida directly to humans.
The fossil also features the complete soft body outline as well as the gut contents: a herbivore, Ida feasted on fruits, seeds and leaves before she died. X-rays reveal both baby and adult teeth, and the lack of a ‘toothcomb’ or a ‘grooming claw’ which is an attribute of lemurs. The scientists estimate Ida’s age when she died to be approximately nine months, and she measured approximately three feet in length.
Ida lived 47 million years ago at a critical period in Earth’s history–the Eocene Epoch, a time when the blueprints for modern mammals were being established. Following the extinction of dinosaurs, the early horses, bats, whales and many other creatures including the first primates thrived on a subtropical planet. The Earth was just beginning to take the shape that we know and recognize today – the Himalayas were being formed and modern flora and fauna evolved. Land mammals, including primates, lived amid vast jungle.
Ida was found to be lacking two of the key anatomical features found in lemurs: a grooming claw on the second digit of the foot, and a fused row of teeth in the middle of her lower jaw known as a toothcomb. She has nails rather than the claw typical of non-anthropoid primates such as lemurs, and her teeth are similar to those of monkeys. Her forward facing eyes are like ours – which would have enabled her fields of vision to overlap, allowing 3D vision and an ability to judge distance.
The fossil’s hands show a humanlike opposable thumb. Like all primates, Ida has five fingers on each hand. Her opposable thumb would have provided a ‘precision grip’. In Ida’s case, this is useful for climbing and gathering fruit; in our case, it allows important human functions such as making tools, and writing. Ida would have also had flexible arms, which would have allowed her to use both hands for any task that cannot be done with one – like grabbing a piece of fruit. Like us, Ida also has quite short arms and legs.
Evidence in the talus bone links Ida to us. The bone has the same shape as in humans today. Only the human talus is obviously bigger. X-rays and CT scanning reveal Ida to be about nine months old when she died, and provide clues to her diet – which included berries and plants. Furthermore the lack of a bacculum (penis bone) means that the fossil was definitely female.
X-rays reveal that a broken wrist may have contributed to Ida’s death – her left wrist was healing from a bad fracture. The scientists believe she was overcome by carbon dioxide gas whilst from drinking from the Messel lake: the still waters of the lake were often covered by a low lying blanket of the gas as a result of the volcanic forces that formed the lake and which were still active. Hampered by her broken wrist, Ida slipped into unconsciousness, was washed into the lake, and sunk to the bottom, where the unique conditions preserved her for 47 million years.
The findings of the two-year study will be revealed exclusively by Atlantic Productions in a documentary film, "The Link," to be screened by History on Monday May 25th, 2009 at 9pm ET/PT and BBC One in the UK Tuesday May 26th, 2009 at 9pm BST. It will also be broadcast on ZDF, NRK and around the world. A book, "The Link," will be published by Little Brown and Company, a division of Hachette Book Group, on Wednesday May 20th. An interactive, content-rich website about Ida has been launched at http://www.revealingthelink.com.
"This little creature is going to show us our connection with all the rest of the mammals," said renowned broadcaster and
naturalist Sir David Attenborough.
"The link they would have said until now is missing ... it is no longer missing."
|
|
noshoesnoshirt
climber
dangling off a wind turbine in a town near you
|
|
|
May 27, 2009 - 09:49pm PT
|
|
|
Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 30, 2009 - 06:55pm PT
|
Scientists Visit the Creation Museum
by DowneastDem (DK)
Tue Jun 30, 2009 at 02:41:39 PM PDT
The Creation Museum in Petersburg, Kentucky opened in 2007 to present an account of the origins of the universe, life and mankind according to a literal interpretation of the Bible. The museum is used by many evangelical Christians as a backdrop to attack the moral relativism that they believe is ruining America. Visitors to the museum learn that the universe was created 6000 years ago (in six days) and dinosaurs and humans cohabited the earth.
Yesterday a group of scientists visited the Creation Museum.
The University of Cincinnati was hosting a conference for paleontologists from all over the world. During a break in the activities, a group of 70 scientists made the short trip to the Creation Museum. While the Americans are accustomed to the general hostility to science among many of their fellow citizens, many of the foreign scientists were shocked at what they found.
Tamaki Sato was confused by the dinosaur exhibit. The placards described the various dinosaurs as originating from different geological periods — the stegosaurus from the Upper Jurassic, the heterodontosaurus from the Lower Jurassic, the velociraptor from the Upper Cretaceous — yet in each case, the date of demise was the same: around 2348 B.C.
"I was just curious why," said Dr. Sato, a professor of geology from Tokyo Gakugei University in Japan.
Poor Dr. Sato. Has he never read the Bible? Doesn't he know that 2348 BC was the year of the Great Flood?
Of course, the godless Europeans were also taken aback by the exhibits:
"I’m very curious and fascinated," Stefan Bengtson, a professor of paleozoology at the Swedish Museum of Natural History, said before the visit, "because we have little of that kind of thing in Sweden."
It's fun to laugh at the museum and the people that actually believe in the junk science presented there. But not all the scientists were amused:
"It's sort of a monument to scientific illiteracy, isn't it?" said Jerry Lipps, professor of geology, paleontology and evolution at University of California, Berkeley.
Lisa Park of the University of Akron cried at one point as she walked a hallway full of flashing images of war, famine and natural disasters which the museum blames on belief in evolution.
"I think it's very bad science and even worse theology -- and the theology is far more offensive to me," said Park, a professor of paleontology who is an elder in the Presbyterian Church.
"I think there's a lot of focus on fear, and I don't think that's a very Christian message... I find it a malicious manipulation of the public."
More than 750,000 people have visited the museum since it opened. Each day, busloads of children from Christian schools throughout America arrive at the Creation Museum for special guided tours.
Rec list? There is a God!
|
|
Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 1, 2009 - 12:32pm PT
|
Remember the Republican Primary Debate?
Remember when every single one of the "candidates" refused to
raise their hand when asked if they believe in "evolution"
And they wonder why they keep losing elections.
F*#king 11th century morons, every one of them.
That's right, you morons voted to put Carribou Barbie one
heartbeat away from being Commander in Chief.
That's how little you value national security. MORONS
|
|
Footloose
Trad climber
Lake Tahoe
|
|
Noshoes... that is funny!
I saw the original. To any 21st century modern... so embarassing... you just wouldn't believe it-- that someone could think like that-- if you hadn't witnessed it.
I swear, with this Forum (you guys are so smart, interesting) who needs a newspaper anymore!
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!