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scuffy b
climber
The deck above the 5
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Sep 27, 2007 - 04:13pm PT
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What's ROCA?
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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Sep 27, 2007 - 04:42pm PT
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should I know what "the deck above the 5" means?
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scuffy b
climber
The deck above the 5
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Sep 27, 2007 - 04:45pm PT
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Well, you could. And I did in fact find some scraps of 2x12
lying around.
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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Sep 27, 2007 - 04:58pm PT
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Holy cryptographic mystery, Batman!
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Sep 27, 2007 - 04:59pm PT
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Sep 27, 2007 - 06:48pm PT
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Bwahahaha!
And just look at those guys, they haven't even had hair since Streisand was big, while the young boys are just going to do what they do anyway, "have it their way" and it's all just burgers as far as the eye can see...
Gotta’ appreciate that particular cartoonist’s eye for wry irony; it cuts so many different ways into the schisms of modern life.
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Anastasia
Trad climber
California
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Sep 27, 2007 - 09:27pm PT
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I love the cartoon...
But why do many post read like people are just talking to themselves?
AF
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Sep 27, 2007 - 10:19pm PT
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I dunno Ana,
I'd say Scuffy b & Weschrist were exploring some good dialog just a few posts back.
The cartoon just happens to take a more oblique viewpoint of the conflict at large and in a playful sense, I think it nails it.
I'm not so much into debate & polemics (they have their place). My preference leans toward expression and appreciation of viewpoints, because I find debate is about winning, losing, and prevailing as opposed to a striving for coexistence, which is benefited by the aims of collusion, inquiry and understanding.
I have elucidated my perspective on the matter about as much as I care to. Now, to crank up an appreciation for the broader context of the controversy at large and to then form an appraisal of the inherent dynamic of the conflict at hand, that might be interesting.
(Jeepers, that sounded stiff, hahaha)
Cheers,
Royboy
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nick d
Trad climber
nm
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Sep 27, 2007 - 11:15pm PT
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There will always those who wish to be remembered for their accomplishments, that is the real genesis of sport climbing. But in the end, they will have accomplished nothing. No one will remember who installed any sport climb even one year later, but no one will ever forget the really gutsy traditional leaders.
Drilling a climb down to your level isn't much to be remembered for.
Wes the troll probably isn't laughing too hard about that cartoon.
MS
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Kevster
Trad climber
Evergreen, CO
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Sep 28, 2007 - 12:14am PT
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Wes...your arguments are so antiquated, you need to get with the program. Haven't you heard that the sportclimbers are growing up to becoming a new generation of hardmen who respect the efforts of those who came before them and are focused on difficulty AND risk? WHere have you been? I suppose sitting at your computer perfecting your arguments for the "Bolt Uprising". Look at the generation you are arguing for and you will see that almost all of the leaders are embracing risk to push the limits. Deep Water Solo's, FFA's with existing aid gear, and 5.14 X routes to name a few examples.
There will always be those who choose to not embrace the true essence of climbing. For those we have the millions of sport routes scattered across the country. But difficulty is just one ingredient in the climbing recipe and without the others the experience becomes bland and short lived. Some people have the ability to focus on difficulty for a lifetime. Others realize that embracing risk brings out true flavor and character. If you look at the history of climbing you will see that risk is an essential part of our past. Without that risk you loose a key factor in what climbing is all about.
Why are you so threatened by those who choose to embrace risk? Have you ever sucessfully tunneled through the fear and rose to the occasion on one of those routes you spew so elloquently against? Do you really think we should make climbing a homogonized experience lacking any depth or character in an attempt to right the wrongs of run out routes?
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WBraun
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 28, 2007 - 12:53am PT
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It's very simple?
The old school will die off and be replaced by the screwed school.
A few die hard souls that can "see" through the fog will still do the death climbs.
The rest will live in suburbia ......
Just see ole "Wes is right when he looks into the crystal ball of the future".
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Sep 28, 2007 - 12:50pm PT
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Kevin wrote: Look at the generation you are arguing for and you will see that almost all of the leaders are embracing risk to push the limits. Deep Water Solo's, FFA's with existing aid gear, and 5.14 X routes to name a few examples.
Kevin...most of the climbers you speak of have embraced sport climbing to reach the levels that have achieved. Tommy Caldwell, Ron Kauk and the Huber Brothers come to mind.
Also remember that most of these climbs were not done in true trad style. Most if not all of the new hard routes in the Black Canyon in the last 15 years have been done from the top down (previewing), toproping pitches and even using dry-tooling to "free" one historical aid route. The above remarks also hold true for the Diamond.
There has never been a fa of a 5.14x climbed on sight, ground up.
If so please let me know.
Headpointing is not trad-climbing and has more of a connection to sport climbing.
Wes does make several good points and others that just to tend to irritate.
The fact of the matter is that sky isn't falling and no has added bolts to Jules Verne, Perilous Journey, Bachar-Yerian or other routes in that vein.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Sep 28, 2007 - 01:04pm PT
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That's a good point to make Bob.
For there is an aspect of coexistence in terms of styles and a healthy, productive cross pollination has been at play for some time.
Werner & Kevin are both right and it is rarely so simple, yet to understand the broader context I find it is helpful to understand that we live in a society that has become ever increasingly risk-averse, while at the same time, highly enamored of an open display of multidisciplinary personal accomplishment.
There is an advertisement for a cruise line, which shows affluent happy couples sipping drinks from inside the comfort of the ship's railing, while overlooking Rio de Janeiro and that wonderful rock complex, Sugarloaf. How exotic! My particular sense for irony perhaps lifts more from this depiction than many of us would see, yet, what I see here are people so insulated through wealth, comfort, and fear that they actually have no intention of leaving the boat. What was that quote from Apocalypse Now? “Never get off the boat man”. They'll just view the mysterious land from the insular safety of the cruise ship deck, take a peek from a safe distance and settle for that as direct experience. Paul Bowles in “The Sheltering Sky” highlighted a distinction between the tourist and traveler. To paraphrase: the traveler drapes into the landscape, melds with the culture, endeavors to learn the language, transforms themselves through absorption, while the tourist takes snapshots from a safe distance and dines in safe enclaves with their familiar countrymen.
A risk-averse society: not to deride the new fashion or sentiment about gear, but look at the modern climber’s predilection for huffing helmets and packs up basic rock routes, cell phones, bolted anchors & etc, it's an outgrowth of the same thing. If one were to look at the actuarial tables, I would bet it is more warranted to wear that rock helmet while driving a car than it is when out climbing on the clean stone while consciously piloting oneself in a focused manner.
Another advertisement: it depicts John Travolta, suave and debonair, while the line reads something like, “Travolta, career: actor, profession: pilot”. It is now common in our culture for people, highly educated, very accomplished people, to seek validation in everything they do and not necessarily from making the consummate investment. Sure they have done it in their jobs, but when it comes to adventure activities, they presume quickly to wear the garland of the anointed professional. A good friend of mine has been teaching snow science for many years and he's well aware of the capricious nuance presented by the medium: yes, he has learned much respect for the dangers and the unknowable aspect of the ever transforming snow pack. Quite often, when he finishes an introductory or mid-level avalanche clinic, the next thing people want to know is, “how can we become instructors?”. Likewise, I have a good friend who's a very accomplished venture capitalist, yet now, with no real prior experience or dedicated chops based upon years of lugging the uninitiated around the vertical environment, beset with questions, tasks and responsibilities, he fancies himself a guide. It's all about the badge.
So what am I saying here? I'm saying people are greedy for self validation and they repeatedly display and consume the shiny tokens that illustrate something: they don't want to make the sacrifice, engage in the risk, pay the dues to reap the internal rewards garnered through sincere, genuine experience. This is not a repudiation of sport climbing and an elevation of trad per se; it is an observation of a trend which informs the overall complexion of this discussion.
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Sep 28, 2007 - 01:11pm PT
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Tar...you wanna get out today??
Most people want a extreme adventure...they just don't want the risk that come with it. There will alway be the small percentage of the population who embrace the risk and do some really amazing things.
The other side is when the extreme ones expect the general population to follow in the same manner...not everyone thinks a climbing route is worth a life.
Also...I used to think that other should climb like I did...then I grew up.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Sep 28, 2007 - 01:13pm PT
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I would love to Bob,
But my arms are so shagged I can't even do the dishes!
It's a long-term problem.
Thanks for asking.
If you want to come up and take a walk around the woods that would be fine.
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Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
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Sep 28, 2007 - 01:17pm PT
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my arms are so shagged I can even do the dishes!
Best wishes, man, I feel for ya. Hope you're getting smart help. Scrambling still in the picture? That's something I often miss.
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Sep 28, 2007 - 01:18pm PT
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Tar...give me a call.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Sep 28, 2007 - 01:22pm PT
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Scrambling has become problematic as well; none of the tweaks and strains in my legs are healing. I'm seeing an internist who has pulled some remarkably telling numbers. I've got low amino acid uptake, poor mitochondrial function (cell energy), blown adrenals, a disrupted stomach ecology. All of this may be at the root of poor muscle and tendon recovery.
Damn, I still look good though!
... maybe I just need a fresh hat.
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Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
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Sep 28, 2007 - 01:25pm PT
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Damn, I still look good, though!
That's the truth. I thought maybe if I bought a cowboy hat ... but no.
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Hootervillian
climber
the Hooterville World-Guardian
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Sep 28, 2007 - 01:41pm PT
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lot's of intangibles when 'running it out'; both on the rock and on the road. it would probably be a little remiss to assume there was no 'fortune' involved in successfully navigating on the redline.
now if you want to define that as an 'accomplishment' after the fact, fine. but if your going to assign relevance of experience to others down the line, don't forget to include those times when things don't turn out so well. call it serendipity if you like, but just remember, some folks see that putting themselves in that position continually to achieve personal satisfaction and the accolades of a diminished few end up on the short end of the probability stick.
is it worth it? a personal choice i s'pose. but demanding that others adhere is the short bus to explicit regulation. probably better in terms of the road, it's deadly out there.
if soloing past bolts is so painful, then there are some pretty big masochists around these parts. either that or they 'solo' in popular areas for other reasons entirely.
Hey Wes, where was the Two-Step model in the Cave Rock thread?
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