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EdwardT
Trad climber
Retired
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Nov 21, 2016 - 12:07pm PT
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Malemute - It's comical how you've got such a chubby for those deplorable "deniers".
Do you think you're making any converts with your condescending posts?
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c wilmot
climber
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Nov 21, 2016 - 12:41pm PT
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Why is no one concerned about overpopulation?
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Fossil climber
Trad climber
Atlin, B. C.
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Nov 21, 2016 - 01:08pm PT
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John, above - right on. And so is Wilmot - overpopulation is the driver.
Alternatives. If we do nothing we're going to have some pretty bad consequences anyway just from the inexorable increase in temperatures.
If the vast majority of climate scientists are right - but we do nothing about GHGs etc. - the consequences will be horrendous. Can we afford to take the chance? Your kids and mine are the ones who will pay, big time.
And - we don't gain a lot in this discussion from insults. Insults usually are a last mindless defence when losing, even though they can be fun, to a point. If insults seem to be desirable, how about getting original?
(Just an amusing sort of OT anecdote - I was once at a cocktail party which included George Hartzog who was NPS Director, and Ansel Adams. Both incredible raconteurs. After a few postprandial libations they got into a contest to see who could outdo each other with Shakespearian-style insults and toasts. It went on for half an hour and was so amazing that 40+ years later I think it was one of the greatest verbal jousts I have ever heard. There were no losers.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Nov 21, 2016 - 02:11pm PT
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We haven't gained anything from a rational presentation of the science.
I respectfully disagree. Chiloe turned me on to the statistical literature that dealt with my own doubts about climate science, and completely changed my thinking. A string of gratuitous insults would have caused me to ignore everything else he, or probably anyone else with his views, said.
In my experience as an advocate, insults and ridicule cause intelligent fact-finders to conclude that the person making the insults lacks a solid argument. Believe it or not, there are plenty of people still making up their minds on this issue, and what we do about it depends on what they think.
John
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eeyonkee
Trad climber
Golden, CO
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Nov 21, 2016 - 03:03pm PT
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You sure seem to have a lot of free time on your hands, DMT. Do you work for a living?
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BobSFrankNose
Social climber
Seattle
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Nov 21, 2016 - 03:17pm PT
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Insults and half-truths have so soiled (and I mean that in a stinky sh#t sort of way) this particular discussion that no critical thinker would take anything Malemut, Chaz, Curt, McHales Navy, Eyeeonkee, Mousedrool, etc., etc, ad nausea serious. Your all just humping each other's leg. Attack, attack, attack, call dummies, fools, stupid, batshit crazy, on and on.
Why? Why not just say some of the initial considerations were wrong, did not come true, and going forward probably won’t come true, and we have some explaining to do with regards of other ‘not happening’ climate changes that were forecast.
Only Ed Hartouni comes off sounding reasonable and educated, and he is a little hesitant to be dogmatic. Of course, he is wasting the taxpayer’s dime being on the supertopo website rather than minding business at Lawrence Livermore Labs.
I am not at all religious, didn’t vote for Trump, don’t work for Evil Koch Brothers or big oil, and I get more skeptical every day. But, I am educated, can read and discern propaganda. Can weigh all of the facts from multiple sources and can – in a scientific manner – reach my own conclusion. But you fools can’t seem to do anything but cut and paste and called others stupid.
O.K., yeah, we have climate change! And, it seems to be warming? And, a percent of that is caused by humans. And, maybe some of it is caused by us filthy idle Americans. So we (the only ones that can really solve the problem) should shut down our economy and go back into the dark ages?
Like Dingus says – you’re not advancing your ideology in a very convincing way. So, many just give it up discussing here with boisterous people so full of themselves.
Look, the data may have been flawed, all the way back, and the data may have had a pressured agenda for an outcome – that is proven over and over.
Those peer reviewed people that made a living at this scare were more interested in continued funding than absolute truths. You claim some deniers are pitching false data – but what about your zealots and your prophets of doom. You don’t think they have an agenda or skin in the game to pitch what is slowing turning out to be your bullsh#t.
For every Koch, you’ve got a Soros. For every reference to the 97%, there are dozens of papers on why that is and was a tilted study.
Who are the climatology religious nuts here? It’s not me. I’m just interested in current perspectives from reputable sides – and most of you nuts have eliminated yourselves from the reputable side.
I was in Denver and heard Chiloe’s presentation a few years back. He got some questions that so flustered him that he could not respond and nearly fainted. Like nobody else in the meeting had done any reading on contrary points of view – like he was preaching to a willing group of snake handlers and everyone would just nod their heads up and down. Hardly convincing of anything.
So stop eating meat, ride a bike, protest in the streets! While the rest of the world ignores all of our little proposals and climate treaties and goes on their merry way.
The only way out of this is a free market approach, and a huge financial enterprising incentive for some smart Americans (not Canadian’s – you can’t seem to get over yourselves pointing figures) to solve the problem – which they will do eventually.
You guys seem more interested in the prospect and joy of frying under a scorching sun – just so you can say to me and others: “See, I told you so”. Now that is stupid!
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eeyonkee
Trad climber
Golden, CO
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Nov 21, 2016 - 03:22pm PT
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Can I just say, that I think you are an idiot, BobSFranksNose?
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BobSFrankNose
Social climber
Seattle
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Nov 21, 2016 - 03:28pm PT
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Anything specific Donkey Greg, or just more banter and name calling. I'm almost convinced your right.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Nov 21, 2016 - 03:39pm PT
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The only way out of this is a free market approach, and a huge financial enterprising incentive for some smart Americans (not Canadian’s – you can’t seem to get over yourselves pointing figures) to solve the problem – which they will do eventually.
I wish that were true, but in this case, we don't have a proper allocation of property rights, so the market won't provide an efficient solution. If I can emit as much carbon as I want without paying a price (either in the form of making a payment to emit, or foregoing a payment to refrain from emitting), the market will send the wrong price signal for the entrepreneurial problem-solvers to sell their products.
If we can come up with a system of property rights, such that the polluter pays the marginal cost of the pollution, then, but only then, is the market the only efficient way out. That's what the debate is really about, but too many on both sides of the argument try to short cut the analysis either by denying that humanity has more than a negligible effect on earth's climate, or asserting that we must "do everything" to minimize our carbon footprint.
Trade-offs get messy to argue because different people value different things, but we will ultimately select some point in the trade-off, whether we try to analyze it carefully or just default into our terms of trade.
John
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wilbeer
Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
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Nov 21, 2016 - 03:46pm PT
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Good analogy JE.
Here is my own,give me one problem in this world where the "free market" has come to the rescue and solved it.
Just one.
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jgill
Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
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Nov 21, 2016 - 03:49pm PT
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Why is no one concerned about overpopulation?
You're probably right, but what can be done in a democracy?
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BobSFrankNose
Social climber
Seattle
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Nov 21, 2016 - 03:59pm PT
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Wow, finally a thoughtful post by John. Saying both sides have to come together and both sides need to work a solution. I'm fine with that. I like it. I would do it, and I am a private property owner.
And then you have Malemute and donkeykong greg that immediately post more name calling and blaming the Koch Brothers. Seriously Malemut, what is your fascination (infatuation) with the Koch Brothers. Do you really think your gaining traction with this line of dribble. And, can I come together with the likes of these guys? Or, would I have to be submissive to their demands and protocols, like a repentant slave to their master. Don't think so. After all, I'm just stupid.
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wilbeer
Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
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Nov 21, 2016 - 04:02pm PT
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Just one.
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wilbeer
Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
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Nov 21, 2016 - 04:52pm PT
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That is all you have,parody,comedy.
No wonder you are sensitive to Malmutes or any others mocking.
Yep,critical thinkers.
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Curt
climber
Gold Canyon, AZ
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Nov 21, 2016 - 05:21pm PT
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After all, I'm just stupid.
At least we finally have consensus.
Curt
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Nov 21, 2016 - 05:26pm PT
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I respectfully disagree. Chiloe turned me on to the statistical literature that dealt with my own doubts about climate science, and completely changed my thinking.
John, I have to admit, you are one in thousands who have done the research and had the ability to alter your opinion on the subject.
Folks like EdBannister are so frickin' full of their egos that they cannot dislodge their "beliefs" to look at the facts, and instead eat up the disinformation that is so prevalent in the US MSM.
I honestly don't know how those folks who lie about this subject sleep at night.
Bob writes:
And then you have Malemute and donkeykong greg that immediately post more name calling and blaming the Koch Brothers.
Bob, I respectfully ask you where you get your opinions on climate change. Do you believe what climate scientists write or are you of the opinion that the jury is still out?
If the latter, who do you think is responsible for casting doubt about climate science into your midst?
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Fossil climber
Trad climber
Atlin, B. C.
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Nov 21, 2016 - 05:47pm PT
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A free market solution? Follow the money.
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August West
Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
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Nov 21, 2016 - 05:55pm PT
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Wow, finally a thoughtful post by John. Saying both sides have to come together and both sides need to work a solution. I'm fine with that. I like it. I would do it, and I am a private property owner.
And then you have Malemute and donkeykong greg that immediately post more name calling and blaming the Koch Brothers. Seriously Malemut, what is your fascination (infatuation) with the Koch Brothers. Do you really think your gaining traction with this line of dribble. And, can I come together with the likes of these guys? Or, would I have to be submissive to their demands and protocols, like a repentant slave to their master. Don't think so. After all, I'm just stupid.
So if you were a smoker and your kids (or grandkids) were screaming at you to stop, would their hysteria be reason enough to say screw you attitude I'm going to smoke myself to death?
And what if you rationally knew that you should quite, but emotionally you didn't want to. And your locker room buddies could point to fake medical journals (that were indirectly funded by tobacco companies, but people denied that too) that cast doubt on the connection, and somebody else was arguing that non-smokers get cancer too and somebody else had pretty graphs that had something to do with white blood counts and then you come across adds run by the Koch brothers that look like:
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Nov 21, 2016 - 06:53pm PT
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Of course, he is wasting the taxpayer’s dime being on the supertopo website rather than minding business at Lawrence Livermore Labs.
so you know my work schedule?
please take a look at the time of the posts and point out those you think were done "on the taxpayer's dime"
we can go from there... (but just so you know, I'm working at LLNL 70% time for the last year and a half)....
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
Shetville , North of Los Angeles
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Nov 21, 2016 - 07:03pm PT
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The other 30% he's in a Jerry Garcia tribute band...
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