Market Turbulence Looms as Greek Referendum Threatens Calm

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madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Jul 10, 2015 - 05:57pm PT
I actually have read it, Rockermike. Good book indeed. Good recommendation for broadening.
looking sketchy there...

Social climber
Lassitude 33
Jul 10, 2015 - 09:26pm PT
My apologies, yes Ron Paul. More screed of a different ilk.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Jul 12, 2015 - 12:52am PT
More screed of a different ilk.

Yeah, about what I expected from you.

Sad.
jstan

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 12, 2015 - 04:30am PT
It appears the U turn following the Greek referendum has acted primarily to cause doubts about the intentions inside Greece. Merkel is probably thinking beyond a Greek exit.


http://money.cnn.com/2015/07/11/news/economy/greece-bailout-europe-talks/

Greece bailout talks: Still no deal
By Mark Thompson @MarkThompsonCNN

Greece has still not done enough to persuade its creditors to hand over another $80 billion in emergency loans, money it urgently needs to avoid bankruptcy and to keep using the euro.

Finance officials from the 19 countries that use the euro met in Brussels Saturday to review austerity measures and reforms Greece said it was prepared to take in exchange for a new bailout.

But after nearly nine hours of talks, there was still no sign of an agreement to begin formal negotiations on a new bailout. The discussions were adjourned and would resume Sunday 5 am ET.

Jeroen Dijsselbloem, who chairs the meeting of eurozone finance ministers said "the issue of credibility and trust was discussed" and overall the Greek bailout talks are "still very difficult."

The talks follow a vote in the Greek parliament early Saturday that gave the country's left-wing government a mandate for economic reforms it had previously rejected just 10 days ago.

Greeks had also voted by a big margin against them in a referendum last Sunday. The imminent threat of economic catastrophe appears to have forced the government's U-turn.

The frantic round of diplomacy comes after European leaders gave Greek Prime Minister Alexis Tsipras an ultimatum this week: Show us you're serious about putting Greek finances in order, or you're out of the eurozone.

Officials in Brussels said the Greek proposals were a positive step, but it was still far from certain whether formal negotiations on a new rescue could begin.

Greece has not yet said how much money it wants in its third bailout since 2010.

Austria's finance minister Hans Joerg Schelling told reporters the loans would total about 72 billion euros ($80 billion), including a contribution from the International Monetary Fund, over three years.

Greece has already received about 233 billion euros from Europe and the IMF in the past five years.

The package of reforms Greece is proposing includes spending cuts, tax hikes, and plans to phase out tax discounts on some islands, among many other things. Greece is also proposing changes to public pensions, such as raising the retirement age, and steps to improve tax collection.

They're very similar to ideas put forward by the country's creditors in late June before Tsipras walked out of talks, triggering the collapse of the last bailout and forcing the closure of Greece's banks.

But on their own they don't go far enough.

Special report: Greece in Crisis
Here are several obstacles to a deal:
1. Greece will need to accept even tougher reforms and fiscal targets to take account of the rapid deterioration in its finances and economic outlook caused by the closure of its banks and the introduction of capital controls.
2. Trust in the Greek government's commitment to reforms, and its ability to implement them, has been shattered by the series of U-turns seen in the past couple of weeks.
3. Opinion in some other countries that use the euro, including Germany and Finland, is running very high against another rescue for Greece. Taxpayers don't want to put more public money at risk. A new bailout would need to be ratified by parliament in Germany, and a handful of other countries.
4. Greece wants creditors to restructure its debt. Europe could give it even more time to pay back loans, and cut already very low rates of interest, but that may not be enough. Some eurozone countries insist they can't go further and cancel Greek debt outright.
5. That in turn could kill a deal. Some eurozone countries say they'll only back a third bailout if the IMF takes part. The IMF has made clear that it will only participate if the Europeans agree to restructure Greece's debt.
So the pressure is on. If talks fail this weekend, all 28 heads of government in the European Union are on standby to fly to Brussels for an emergency summit late Sunday.
That meeting would discuss how to cope with the unpredictable fallout of a Greek exit from the euro.
rockermike

Trad climber
Berkeley
Jul 12, 2015 - 05:31am PT
http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2011/07/goldman-bet-against-entire-european-nations-who-were-clients-the-same-way-it-bet-against-its-subprime-mortgage-clients.html

Somewhat dated article.... but still teaches us something about how this sausage was made....
couchmaster

climber
Jul 12, 2015 - 07:49am PT
To Craig
"A 7th Day Adventist!!"
and Randy
"a different ilk."
, ahhh, if only you had the brains to be able to successfully attack the argument instead of the poster. Better luck next time.



To Rockermike, that looks like a stunning work which I will be reading. Thanks for the heads up.

"John Perkins started and stopped writing Confessions of an Economic Hit Man four times over 20 years. He says he was threatened and bribed in an effort to kill the project, but after 9/11 he finally decided to go through with this expose of his former professional life. Perkins, a former chief economist at Boston strategic-consulting firm Chas. T. Main, says he was an "economic hit man" for 10 years, helping U.S. intelligence agencies and multinationals cajole and blackmail foreign leaders into serving U.S. foreign policy and awarding lucrative contracts to American business. "Economic hit men (EHMs) are highly paid professionals who cheat countries around the globe out of trillions of dollars," Perkins writes. Confessions of an Economic Hit Man is an extraordinary and gripping tale of intrigue and dark machinations. Think John Le Carré, except it's a true story."

Locker style edit: nevermind Mike, I just read some of the plentiful 1 star Amazon reviews and it looks like it's full of opinion and low on facts....much like Craig and Randy:-)

One reviewer recommended "America's Secret War" instead, which looks better. http://www.amazon.com/Americas-Secret-War-Worldwide-Struggle/dp/0767917855/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1436712931&sr=8-1&keywords=America%27s+Secret+War
looking sketchy there...

Social climber
Lassitude 33
Jul 12, 2015 - 10:45am PT
Yo Couch,

If you read my comment carefully, I make no negative comments about Mad at all. The "different ilk" was directed to Ron Paul vs Rand Paul.

Resorting to ad hominem is generally a cheap shot because one's argument is weak, one is incapable or articulating a sound argument, or perhaps just frustration. I may disagree with Mad's views, but at least he presents them in an articulate manner.

...if only you had the brains to be able to successfully attack the argument
Is this abject ad hominen meant to be ironic?

Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Jul 12, 2015 - 10:47am PT
Borrow and spend! Borrow and spend! The mantra of the criminally insane when it's done at a national level.

Oh, no.

You got it backwards. "Borrow and spend" is the Republican way.

"Tax and spend" is the Democrat way. Democrats believe in paying as you go along.

Republicans believe that they'll find a way to cut the debt on loans, or find someone else to pay for them, so they borrow, instead.
looking sketchy there...

Social climber
Lassitude 33
Jul 12, 2015 - 11:05am PT
...looks like it's full of opinion and low on facts. Much like Craig and Randy.

Now that is the epitome of "opinion," though I'm certainly not vouching for Craig in any respect.

If you really are interested whether what I wrote about the history of the Jefferson Anti-Federalism relevant to banking (or US Monetary History) is fact or opinion, I'd be willing to refer you to source material. [And these are not cherry-picked factoid's used to support someone's latest book being hawked to an already biased audience.]
ruppell

climber
Jul 12, 2015 - 11:21am PT
Is this the "incident" the US Military is practicing for with JadeHelm 15?


rockermike

Trad climber
Berkeley
Jul 12, 2015 - 04:43pm PT
"Locker style edit: nevermind Mike, I just read some of the plentiful 1 star Amazon reviews and it looks like it's full of opinion and low on facts. Much like Craig and Randy. "

Coach... I'm aware of the naysayers. ... but there are plenty who appreciate the book. My suspicion is that there is coordinated effort to discredit the guy - given they couldn't shut him up. your milage may vary.

But how exactly is one supposed to prove that you met with the president of some bannana republic in 1972... only to have him die in a air accident a week later?

Anyway for myself I found the guy credible. Give it a shot.
Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Jul 12, 2015 - 04:58pm PT
Re Rdog's comment:

I listen to warnings from the smartest economic and financial people around, and all of them have been predicting a collapse of our economy. And what is taking place right now abroad reflects what those people are saying.

Having sold emergency survival supplies at a wholesale level to folks that think like Rdog during the last 24 years, I accept that they, like Rdog, are always predicting disaster for our economy & society.

It may be a sincere belief, or it may help them to make a living off of selling their own paranoid fantasies and/or stuff to folks who wish to survive their predicted upcoming economic or social disasters.

Either way, in their world there is never a rosy future & never a good day coming.

Selling to those folks was a good living for me, but I am so damn glad I don't have to do it anymore.

Spew on folks, maybe Rdog can sell lots more guns & ammo next week.

rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Jul 12, 2015 - 05:58pm PT
Fritz...Don't be so sure about your rosy future...The yellow bellied marmots are invading Choss Creek and you don't have enough magnum loads or wine to survive that stampede....rj
johnboy

Trad climber
Can't get here from there
Jul 12, 2015 - 06:25pm PT
I'm still waiting for that immediate threat at the border that RA and BB were crying about seven or so months ago.
Sula

Trad climber
Pennsylvania
Jul 12, 2015 - 08:09pm PT
Ken M posted:
"Tax and spend" is the Democrat way. Democrats believe in paying as you go along.
I seee! Very helpful!

I now understand why US federal debt has grown so little since Jan 2009.
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Jul 12, 2015 - 08:55pm PT
Sula...Somebody's got to pay for the Iraq invasion that Bush had a big hard on for...Maybe that has something to do with the deficit along with his Tax cuts for the rich...Oh , never mind...
Sula

Trad climber
Pennsylvania
Jul 12, 2015 - 09:05pm PT
r.j. posted:
Somebody's got to pay for the Iraq invasion
Fortunately, the "pay as you go along" folks have been in charge for 6 years, which explains why we've been so successful dealing with this sort of thing by means of taxes rather than any increase in debt.
Norton

Social climber
Jul 12, 2015 - 09:20pm PT
wrong

The Republican have controled the House of Representatives since 2010.

Per our Constitution all spending must be passed by the House

The House Republicans continually vote to add to the national debt by voting on and
passing spending legislation that is in excess of income = deficit spending

And now the Senate is also majority Republicans since 14, doesn't matter because one must understand that the Republican House is THE spending branch

Do not go down the road of "spending" = Bush doubled the national debt, and Reagan
tripled it, both Republicans

Do not even hint at "economy", we were in a Republican Recession when bush left office

Good night

BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Jul 12, 2015 - 09:44pm PT
Wiki
The American Recovery and Reinvestment Act of 2009 (ARRA) (Pub.L. 111–5), commonly referred to as the Stimulus or The Recovery Act, was an economic stimulus package enacted by the 111th United States Congress in February 2009 and signed into law on February 17, 2009, by President Barack Obama.
To respond to the Great Recession, the primary objective for ARRA was to save and create jobs almost immediately. Secondary objectives were to provide temporary relief programs for those most affected by the recession and invest in infrastructure, education, health, and renewable energy. The approximate cost of the economic stimulus package was estimated to be $787 billion at the time of passage, later revised to $831 billion between 2009 and 2019.[1] The Act included direct spending in infrastructure, education, health, and energy, federal tax incentives, and expansion of unemployment benefits and other social welfare provisions. It also created the President's Economic Recovery Advisory Board.
The rationale for ARRA was from Keynesian macroeconomic theory, which argues that, during recessions, the government should offset the decrease in private spending with an increase in public spending in order to save jobs and stop further economic deterioration. Shortly after the law was passed, Nobel laureate Paul Krugman, while supportive of the law, criticized the law for being too weak because it did not "even cover one third of the (spending) gap".

how would it look if we all practiced this kind of spend as you go %d
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Jul 12, 2015 - 10:08pm PT
I thought this thread was about Greece?
Messages 281 - 300 of total 398 in this topic << First  |  < Previous  |  Show All  |  Next >  |  Last >>
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