Ammon's House of Cards

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no_one

Big Wall climber

Hurricane, Utah

Sep 14, 2006 - 08:35pm PT

Msmith, your echoing my thoughts pretty close. I think it selfish of the elite among us to limite ethical ascents using pins to only those routes one of them hasen't managed to climb clean. It's absurd. Being a sandstone climber, I am as much for minimizing impact as the next guy, but the bar for what is considered an exceptable/ethical ascent for the average guy shoulden't be set by the elite or crazy. Have all you hardmen forgot about the learning curve and how much milage it has taken you to master your craft. Now you expect those of us still honing ours to stop climbing or leave alone some sought after ascent that promises to push our skills because you pulled off some low percentage death defying move. You'll never get anybody but the elite or proud to pretend they follow your definition of good ethics.

Mimi

climber

Sep 14, 2006 - 08:37pm PT

Jerr, that's your opinion and I respectfully disagree. Once again, this isn't about one pin.

The WOS XXIV thread will have to start up again too. We can have dueling threads addressing these issues. Won't that be fun!

Mimi

climber

Sep 14, 2006 - 08:44pm PT

You are mistaken. Steve's not that kind of guy. I'm really amazed at how thin-skinned you guys/gals are. Sheeesh!

I don't remember climbers being like this back in the day.

But I'm pretty old I guess.

madbolter1

Big Wall climber

Walla Walla, WA

Sep 14, 2006 - 08:47pm PT

No One, how dare you??? The "others" are neither elite nor proud. They are simply GOOD! They are GOOD enough to tell you how to be! So, quit complaining and get GOOD too!

Purify your soul by confession, quit transgressing, and you too may someday aspire to the lofty heights of the GOOD. Then, you too can be like the other "dogs pissing on trees" and tell those below you how to be.

And, how did Ammon "make his case?" I didn't see any purified soul there!

Mimi

climber

Sep 14, 2006 - 08:49pm PT

He didn't. He's probably busy working.

Toker Villain

Big Wall climber

Toquerville, Utah

Sep 14, 2006 - 08:59pm PT

This is pretty funny. No_one has been trying to get me to show him some aid climbing skills but doesn't want to limit their use to where they can still be fully justified.

Hmmm,....

I suppose a little bit of knowlege can be a dangerous thing. lol

gonna hafta work sumtin out

madbolter1

Big Wall climber

Walla Walla, WA

Sep 14, 2006 - 08:59pm PT

Working? Bah! I want confession! He's bad, bad, baaadddd! SG says so, so it must be true!

healyje

Trad climber

Portland, Oregon

Sep 14, 2006 - 09:01pm PT

no_one: "Msmith, your echoing my thoughts pretty close. I think it selfish of the elite among us to limite ethical ascents using pins to only those routes one of them hasen't managed to climb clean. It's absurd. Being a sandstone climber, I am as much for minimizing impact as the next guy, but the bar for what is considered an exceptable/ethical ascent for the average guy shoulden't be set by the elite or crazy. "

I personally hope MSmith would say you're misintepreting at least part of his position. This "elite" / "elitist" argument is at least as lame as the "children are dying in Africa" one in my book. Setting the bar for what is possible and everyone striving for that is what climbing is all about - not floating with the lowest common denominator.

no_one: "Have all you hardmen forgot about the learning curve and how much milage it has taken you to master your craft. Now you expect those of us still honing ours to stop climbing or leave alone some sought after ascent that promises to push our skills because you pulled off some low percentage death defying move. You'll never get anybody but the elite or proud to pretend they follow your definition of good ethics. "

There are plenty of great routes out there that haven't gone clean yet that you could work on your pincraft if you want. But the skills necessary for clean aid climbs are not pincraft by definition. You could just as easily work your way up on C0 routes progressing up to hard clean moves like the one under discussion. Matter of fact, you could work on your clean skills to that point without ever picking up a hammer. Saying you need to work on your pincraft in order to learn to do hard clean moves is a bit odd from where I sit.

What I really hear you (and Ricardo and others) saying is I'm simply not interested in those ethics because they impinge on your trip for one of the three reasons I cited before (ass, time, top). Fine, say that and cop to one or more of those rationales, but this "elitist" and "learning" business sounds more like whining, at least to me anyway.

Jerry Dodrill

climber

Bodega, CA

Sep 14, 2006 - 09:07pm PT

I stopped reading before the first forty posts, then checked back a few times. Still doesn't look like the arguement has gotten far, even after 300 posts, or did I miss something? Glad to see the Madventist faction is alive and well though. Hi Richard. Don't bring down the wrath of God too hard on these guys, okay? =)

madbolter1

Big Wall climber

Walla Walla, WA

Sep 14, 2006 - 09:12pm PT

Right on, healyje.

The distinction is, and will remain that of striving toward various general (and sometimes conflicting) ideals and vociferous nitpicking and character attacks (from self-styled "others") about particular judgments/acts.

I, for one, will always be more worried about how we deal with each other than how we deal with the rock. These don't have to be mutually exclusive, of course; we can be concerned with both at the same time. But they do often come apart, as the start of this thread indicates.

WBraun

climber

Sep 14, 2006 - 09:21pm PT

Yikes you guys still here in the control room .......

It's time you all go out and get some beer and pizza. I'll buy.

Oh mannn .............

Mimi

climber

Sep 14, 2006 - 09:25pm PT

We're all heading to our fave pubs. Check in later Werner, we've got some more SOPs to work on.

Darnell

Big Wall climber

Chicago

Sep 14, 2006 - 09:38pm PT

I would rather be a hammer than a nail. Yes I would!!

Or

I would rather be Werner than bear #46

no_one

Big Wall climber

Hurricane, Utah

Sep 14, 2006 - 09:54pm PT

healyje, not whinning just voicing my thoughts. Those that know me know that I'm a clean climber and dedicated to putting up clean lines. I don't even own a pin rack, have never driven a pin other than in a drilled hole. But if I was to put myself in one of your catagories or say that I'm trying to represent a certain group, it would be "ASS". My olny reservations against full agreement in "once clean always clean", is when a good line is off limit to other good climbers because one climber weather elite or crazy, eliminates one pin that protects a devestating fall. Call me a pvssy, whatever.

Ron, if your giving the mountain best, how could anyone justify a bolt ladder? If the mountain put a blank face infront of you just bail and give the mountain best!

Toker Villain

Big Wall climber

Toquerville, Utah

Sep 14, 2006 - 10:09pm PT

An old question and one answered in a question of degree.
Besides, from a purely 'environmental impact' point of view, a one time bolt has less impact than continual nailing.

Just wondering;
has anyone ever seen Werner and #46 in the same place at the same time???