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dirtbag
climber
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Aug 15, 2014 - 06:44am PT
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No Bluering, they are not the big deal. Not by a long shot. Worldwide, radical Islam is a much greater problem. ISIS, ISIL, Boko Haram (sp?) are doing truly horrifying things to people. No Christian group I'm aware of is doing anything close to this.
However...in this country, day to day, right-wing Christian fundamentalism is a greater pain in the ass.
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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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Aug 15, 2014 - 11:32am PT
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Turns out Christians are one of the current leading terrorist threats in English speaking countries. Kidnapping, bombings, murders. You know, the usual:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-abortion_violence
Reckon blowing someone's head off is morally superior to cutting it off, eh?
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Aug 15, 2014 - 11:35am PT
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Ok, I can't let this one slide. How long is a "day" in the bible?
If you've ever been to a Baptist Sermon - the "day" can feel like an eternity.
You beat me to it, Ricky, but I wouldn't confine it to Baptists. I'm reminded of a story about a preacher who tended to drone on and on. His congregation installed a large clock in the back of the church to remind the pastor when he should wrap it up. It worked for one Sunday. The next Sunday, he was back to his filibuster-like sermon. As the time dragged by, more and more members of the congregation started glancing backwards at the clock, causing the pastor to interject, "Remember Lot's Wife!"
I would honestly answer the question "How long is a 'day' in the Bible?" a few different ways:
1. (based on relativistic physics) It depends. (what is the relative speed of the observer and observee?)
2. (based on astronomy) It depends. (since the first day of Genesis was prior to the creation of the sun)
2. (based on language and context) It depends. (e.g., compare and contrast "the day of the LORD" vs. "forty days and forty nights.")
John
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Aug 15, 2014 - 01:38pm PT
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You call that honesty?
Absolutely, because it depends.
If you want a dishonest answer, it's the same answer that a really good accountant would give you if you asked him or her "What is two plus two?"
The answer, of course, is "What do you want it to be?"
John
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StahlBro
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Aug 15, 2014 - 01:41pm PT
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Unfortunately that is what I expected. It makes it easy to mold the narrative to whatever is convenient when it is challenged. Trying to treat the bible as anyting more than parable and allegory is a slippery slope isn't it? Many of the stories of the bible were common long before th bible was even written, and they were borrowed from other cultures.
But we digress from the OP. Mea culpa
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Sport climber
moving thru
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Aug 15, 2014 - 01:50pm PT
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Hi GDavis,
On a brief hiatus in Lee Vining Library and just saw your post. Actually, picked it up because you wrote my name. If anyone wants to get in touch just mention my name in your post.
Anyway, can't possibly do a reply justice in the few short minutes I have.
But, you have the support and love of a good friend, namely me. It's interesting reading your post because H (Harrison) stopped by TPR yesterday and we have a long, great talk about some of the very things mentioned. Wish you would have been here.
TPR is great because there is actual time to discuss life. We have no phones or internet to interfere with human connection.
Peace to you Greg and everyone who cares to think about who they are and their place on this planet. I love you all. Cheers, Lynne.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Aug 15, 2014 - 01:52pm PT
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I'll continue the thread drift, because I think Jawon has offered a good alternative to those who have a real interest in Micronut's original offer.
Trying to treat the bible as anyting more than parable and allegory is a slippery slope isn't it?
That's a non-sequitur. Saying a word's meaning depends on its context differs from making all verbal communication either a parable or an allegory, but that's what your argument requires.
John
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StahlBro
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Aug 15, 2014 - 02:04pm PT
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I don't agree John.
Saying a word that has been used consistently to describe a known cycle of the earth for thousands of years has situational definitions when it used in the bible is disingenuous. It renders the literal interpretation of bible meaningless. That was my point.
Rob
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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Aug 15, 2014 - 02:27pm PT
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The bible is first and foremost a SPIRITUAL guide. If you don't read it as such with spiritual eyes you'll never comprehend.
2 Peter 3:8 But beloved, do not forget this one thing, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
This isn't much use literally, but what does it say to your soul?
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Aug 16, 2014 - 12:09am PT
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It renders the literal interpretation of bible meaningless. That was my point.
Then we agree on something, namely that we cannot read every word of the Bible literally. Unless I'm misreading your proposition, however, (entirely likely on a Friday when I'm thinking more about the next climb than the last word), you're contending that we should read none of the Bible literally. If cannot read every word of a document literally, it does not follow that we can read none of it literally.
When Nehemiah writes about who rebuilt what portion of the walls and gates of Jerusalem, or when the Gospels state that Jesus was crucified and buried in one day, is there any logical reason to read this as allegory rather than factual? In contrast, when Joel talks about the "day of the LORD" is there any logical reason to say that he refers to a 24-hour period as measured on earth? The context tells us how to proceed. If the meaning is ambiguous, such as the Genesis account of creation, it's always over details that don't change essential doctrine.
I'm signing off for the weekend (and maybe longer), but I appreciate the civility of your discussion on a topic usually guaranteed to produce incivility.
John
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Byran
climber
San Jose, CA
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Aug 16, 2014 - 02:01am PT
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So in your opinion did Jesus literally die for our sins, or just figuratively die for our sins? Or is that another one of those points of ambiguity that isn't essential to the doctrine?
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Dr.Sprock
Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
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Aug 16, 2014 - 02:25am PT
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two subjects that will start endless arguments are religion and politics,
religion has nothing to do with spirituality,
in fact, in many ways it is the opposite,
what is spirituality? nobody has defined it,
ask 50 people, you will get 50 different answers,
look it up in 50 dictionaries and you will get 50 different answers,
what is spiritual?
anything which is not material.
who is God or your creator or your higher power?
anybody or anything who will take on your mess.
the less you know about him, the better,
your job is to have faith and act nice,
his job is to give you signs that your faith is being rewarded.
your job is to notice that these signs are not coincidence,
this takes awareness and experience,
don't worry about what is on his end of the line, let him worry about that,
better not to walk alone,
all of us come from the same place,
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Ezra Ellis
Trad climber
North wet, and Da souf
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Aug 16, 2014 - 03:09am PT
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^^^^ really thoughtful Dr. Sprock , very nice post (sincerely).
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Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
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Aug 16, 2014 - 07:34am PT
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your job is to have faith and act nice,
his job is to give you signs that your faith is being rewarded.
wondering when He's going to show up for work.
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SC seagoat
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, or In What Time Zone Am I?
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Aug 16, 2014 - 09:05am PT
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wondering when He's going to show up for work.
"Ask not what HE can do for you, but rather what YOU can do for him."
A religious person might say.
Susan
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Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
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Aug 16, 2014 - 09:47am PT
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I feel so guilty about Eve eating that apple, I deserve eternal damnation...and it's all her fault.
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Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
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Aug 16, 2014 - 10:49am PT
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yep, that's her alright.
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anita514
Gym climber
Great White North
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Aug 16, 2014 - 11:57am PT
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BASE104
Social climber
An Oil Field
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Aug 16, 2014 - 12:49pm PT
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IMO, saying that God will cure your depression is not only wrong, but downright false.
Nobody can say what God will do.
The idea that you will get something from God iin this life is a notion that you can see in action if you watch a service from Joel Osteen. Osteen and his type preach "prosperity religion," where god will reward you in this life. Apparently, business is booming.
The bible itself tells of many tales of suffering without God's intervention, so I would be leery of promises like the OP.
I remember first watching Osteen preaching from his Houston mega-church, and how it was so different from my Methodist upbringing that stressed humility and compassion for others. He preaches material wealth in this world.
Christianity isn't a democracy. Whether God answers your prayers or not is up to him.
On the topic of depression, it is known that support from others can help you cope. Isolating yourself is also not a good idea. In that broad sense, a community can help those who suffer to cope. You may find that at church, depending on the church.
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