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Dingus McGee

Social climber

Laramie

Jun 26, 2014 - 07:03am PT

Randi,

we speak American English here, not Oxford English.

clinker

Trad climber

Santa Cruz, California

Jun 26, 2014 - 07:37am PT

T
Randi,

we speak American English here, not Oxford English.

The speaking of the English language improved as it moved westward, reaching perfection around Santa Cruz, CA.

Sharma and others from this area for example speak perfect English in my opinion.

jstan

climber

Jun 26, 2014 - 07:42am PT

Top down's the best style to bolt climbs that steep so the finished product does justice to the moves and the quality.

We have an answer for single pitch areas. The areas seeing the most concentrated use.

Routes are put in on top rope and thereafter repeated in the same style. No protection need be installed. This way depending upon the holds you rule out you can have ten different routes on the same rock. We've been doing that in bouldering for decades.

For the sixteen years I was in Washington, Carderock had more use per square foot than any other area I have seen. This was the way it was done and we all had a blast. Not one piece of protection was ever installed.

Norwegian

Trad climber

dancin on the tip of god's middle finger

Jun 26, 2014 - 07:47am PT

milktoast when you grow up
you should be bacon.

you'd make great bacon.

it could be like this,

dingus portpork.

clinker

Trad climber

Santa Cruz, California

Jun 26, 2014 - 07:57am PT

milktoast when you grow up

The curious case of Dingus Milktoast. His body ages normally, but his intellect grows younger each day.

Others may be similarly afflicted or gifted.

survival

Big Wall climber

Terrapin Station

Jun 26, 2014 - 07:58am PT

Great post Jefe!

jstan

climber

Jun 26, 2014 - 08:00am PT

Where climbing is proceeding in high density, when someone decides to put in a line of protection they act to reduce the number of things people will be doing. Why should the desire for authorship possessed by one person diminish the opportunities afforded all others?

jstan

climber

Jun 26, 2014 - 08:15am PT

jstan even a cursory reading of the history of climbing will answer your question about the desire for recognition.

Aren't you in those books too?

I was saying then, the same thing I am saying now. It is up to others to weigh the issues in their own mind.

Vitaliy M.

Mountain climber

San Francisco

Jun 26, 2014 - 08:31am PT

Did anyone say parking lot?

drljefe

climber

El Presidio San Augustin del Tucson

Jun 26, 2014 - 08:40am PT

DMT- seems we have some parallels.
Now that you're done being "difficult" lol!

drljefe

climber

El Presidio San Augustin del Tucson

Jun 26, 2014 - 08:52am PT

"Randizzle" lol!

Burchey, I really want to like you!

Ed Hartouni

Trad climber

Livermore, CA

Jun 26, 2014 - 08:53am PT

for DMT

did you cut a trail to your new area?

when you cut that trail (I'm going on your MO) did you consider what it was you were cutting? or did you assume that "it's just a little trail in a vast area so it can't have done any harm" sort of justification?

did you consider whether or not your need for yet another "new" route was because you were bored with the 100s of other not anymore "new" routes you had put up in the past, and that in a few years, months, weeks, this "new" route will also bore you and you'll feel the need to put up yet another "new" route?

how about when someone else climbs on your routes uninvited by you? will you feel the rage of violation that someone did something on "your" route and that that was unacceptable because of your 18th century view that since you "improved" the land that act translates into a "deed of ownership" of that land?

would you dismiss a better, younger climber's ability to send your project easily without resorting to technological aid to accomplish it, and in better style than you could muster?

could you be so kind as to inform us what the general rules of the DMT wing of the climbing FA community are, the domain over where and when they are in force, the "statue of limitations" of their enforcement, the constitution of the governing body that pertains to them.

also, it would be nice to understand the history of the DMT wing, from where its "headwaters" spring, and from which it derives its authority. this might also indicate where this wing may move within the range of possible FA factions.

given that you do not feel beholden to any "arbitrary" statement of "rules" for FAs, could you inform us as to your own "arbitrary" rules and why someone should follow your's when doing FAs in "your" domain?

what is the penalty for other FA factions invading "your" domain and putting routes up over "your" routes, or altering them in anyway? A stingy rebuke in the form of an email?

Ed Hartouni

Trad climber

Livermore, CA

Jun 26, 2014 - 09:09am PT

The Warbler brings up an epicure's view of guidebooks, one that is not accessible to the vast majority of guidebook readers, if for no other reason then they view a guidebook as a resource for quick and comprehensive information on a route requiring no greater knowledge of an area.

One might have a hint that a route with the FFA team of Pratt and Sacherer, with a date that puts the route within the acme of their FFA contributions, might require a set of rather advanced skills...
even though the rating seems somewhat tame.

While I agree that the FA list is important, its use as additional information regarding the climb is limited to those who actually know the history of an area. Many modern guidebook authors distill this info into the inclusion or exclusion of the routes, and for those included routes, it appears as shorthand in route descriptors. At that point the list is relegated to recognition, the informational content is cryptic to the "common" user.

Ed Hartouni

Trad climber

Livermore, CA

Jun 26, 2014 - 09:19am PT

I totally agree with rgold, but just because there are non-Euclidean geometries does not mean that Euclidean geometries are incorrect, they remain valid in their domain.

By framing the question as he did, he puts even more onus on those who would claim to be beyond "Euclidean" to explain just what the boundaries of those domains are, simple to do in mathematics, more difficult to do in climbing.

rgold's criticism of my position is entirely valid, but it does make this requirement that anyone who claims them as the basis of their "style" has to show that they are entitle to making that claim.

rgold does not give any slack to students who fail at proofs but claim that since there is non-Euclidean geometries that the Euclidean proofs are no longer correct.

If you want to go down this path, you join rgold and madbolter1 in a dialog on the topic of: "what is climbing," which most would certainly want to avoid...

the most important thing to take from rgold's response is that rules, however arbitrary, are necessary to define climbing. Climbing makes no sense otherwise.

By the way, this is exactly the conclusion of climbers in Yosemite Valley came to, representing the first "style/ethics" debate, and the origin of what Dingus McGee calls "California Rules", the battle between the Robbins clan and the Harding clan, and the rather intellectually flaccid arguments we hear today... whining about self freedom and all that.

Ed Hartouni

Trad climber

Livermore, CA

Jun 26, 2014 - 09:26am PT

since it is about FA style, I'm interested in the debate among FAists.. others may have opinions

Ed Hartouni

Trad climber

Livermore, CA

Jun 26, 2014 - 09:29am PT

"...but the whole enterprise is built on instinct and primal satisfaction, not gentlemen's rules of conduct."

the classic excuse to avoid responsibilities for your actions.

Why not cut down that tree that gets in the way of your "instinctive" judgement of a "way killer" line? especially if doing so gives you "primal satisfaction."

Ed Hartouni

Trad climber

Livermore, CA

Jun 26, 2014 - 09:33am PT

I've climbed at Squamish... and I believe that there are a set of arbitrary rules that FAists follow there... though I have never put up an FA at Squamish (I've climbed with people who have)

have you?

Vitaliy M.

Mountain climber

San Francisco

Jun 26, 2014 - 09:34am PT

I would like to agree about importance of recording the FA/FFA team. I tried to climb more things in the Valley and I looked at who did them first. As you notice these names more often its like an alarm bell. ‘Oooooh it’s the Warbler’s line, bust be hard as fk!’ Not sure where he learned to stem, but that 11b (Bircheff Williams) is sure gonna feel like 5.impossible to those who are accustomed to low 5.11 splitters. People like Pratt, Bridwell, Sacherer, to name a few, really pushed it in their day.
Anyone here watched the movie about Royal and Tom Frost climbing WF of the Sentinel? Hats off to those guys for doing it using some dress up shoes and pins. All these little climbing stories matter to some people, so having a record is awesome. I got a big kick finding out that Sacherer and Bridwell did North Buttress of Middle Cathedral in a day before cams came out. And Clint Cummins’ epic work to put up the Ho Chi Minh trail? AWESOME! The stories of FAs kick ass!!!

I do have a question. So if a 5.8-9 slab climber bolts a 5.8-9 route from stances and hooks and run outs are not huge is it a better or worse style than if a 5.11 slab climber bolts it with 50ft runs between bolts on sustained 5.8 terrain? Seems like people respect the runout so maybe the latter is better style, but than the weaker climber is challenging himself a lot more. To me it seems like none is a better style, but just a little different. What are the thoughts of others on this?