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Russ Walling
Social climber
from Poofters Froth, Wyoming
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Sep 15, 2013 - 12:10am PT
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I laugh robustly!
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Todd Eastman
climber
Bellingham, WA
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Sep 15, 2013 - 12:20am PT
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... re-calibrate the soft sport ratings as a first step towards introducing climbing reality back to the masses. When 5.6 difficulty routes in gyms or outdoors are listed as 5.10, the realities of what standards are get completely twisted. The gym/sport climber is simply not prepared to deal with the world of trad/slab climbing...
Now back the regularly scheduled fist fight!
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RyanD
climber
Squamish
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Sep 15, 2013 - 12:28am PT
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^^^ Todd! Genius.
Jghedge is nuts!!
& bolts!!!
Warbler is bringing great points here too.
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Greg Barnes
climber
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Sep 15, 2013 - 12:42am PT
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Respect the FA.
But the trick is when the FA says "sure, add bolts to my runout routes." I've had FA folks ask me to do exactly that, including folks who've put up runout testpieces but would be psyched to have bolts added to some of their easier runout routes.
Lots of generalities in this discussion - so let's get specific. Alan Nelson invited people to retrobolt his Tuolumne routes, and even offered to send them a check for the hardware! For those that don't know, he put up more Tuolumne free solo FAs than anyone (pretty sure he did more than Bachar). He also did a large number of seriously runout routes. No one (that I know of) ever took up his offer, but he did make it in a very public forum. Unfortunately he passed at a very young age (late 40s) due to cancer.
So...now what? Do we respect the FA in his youth, or in his 40s? The 500' Bachar free solo 5.9 Solitary Confinement has been brought up here - and there are 3 Nelson free solos to the right on Fairview Dome (more in the 400' range), Walk of Life (5.9), Blue Moon (5.8), and Silverado (5.6).
So chime in on this specific example - Silverado, the 5.6. In 1985 the FA does multipitch length free solo, 18 years later in 2003 he issues a very public invitation to retrobolt his routes.
What say you?
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Greg Barnes
climber
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Sep 15, 2013 - 12:49am PT
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Oh yeah...here's his actual post from 2003, on rockclimbing.com. The line between the ::: is a quote he was replying to.
Alan Nelson (pywiak):
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pywiak
Jun 26, 2003, 9:19 PM
Can I enlist you to help me retro a few of my Tuolumne routes?
:::If you are the FA'r and you agree to have them bolted, great. What if you didn't want them bolted???:::
Let's see now - I did the FAs, and not only did I "agree to have them bolted", I put the bolts in using the type of hardware and style of the day. In my judgement (based on almost thirty years of setting routes, bolted and non-bolted) a lot of the hardware (if still original) is mank, and the bolt locations may pose unnecessary risks for subsequent leaders. This may be why many of my routes show up in the "Tuolumne Topropes" guide, despite being established as dangerous leads.
That was the foolishness of my youth, of which I have repented.
I declare "open season" on all of my Tuolumne routes for anyone who feels like rebolting or retrobolting these lines. Since I'm firmly settled in northern Colorado, I don't get out to the Meadows very often anymore, and I'd rather spend some of my time doing new stuff and climbing other folk's routes than spending all of my trips trying to atone for the sins of my youth.
For those with a drill who wish to contribute safe climbing experiences to the vast community of bolt-clippers, look up the ascent info in the back of the book or PM me for suggestions. Send me an updated topo when you're done, let me know what hardware you placed, and I'll reimburse you for the gear.
As for those who feel that routes belong to the FA party and must be preserved in that manner for eternity, I humbly disagree. Routes belong to the community, and it is the community that will maintain them long after the FA party gets the chop. Community implies a diversity of views, but ultimately the work is done by individuals. Anyone involved in route maintenance would be wise to consider the history and context of an area, be seasoned and experienced in a full range of climbing styles, and courageous enough to be fully accountable for their efforts in the face of violent opposition and criticism from those who disagree.
Unsafe climbing is stupid.
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RyanD
climber
Squamish
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Sep 15, 2013 - 12:54am PT
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Most of the people that complain about how routes are bolted have never done it themselves. Seems they'd rather gripe about how others have done it than get out there and put the hunt, effort, time and money into doing a route that's good by their standards.
+10 retrobolts
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Todd Eastman
climber
Bellingham, WA
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Sep 15, 2013 - 01:13am PT
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Unsafe climbing is stupid.
Then climb within your capabilities or in the exciting edges...
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RyanD
climber
Squamish
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Sep 15, 2013 - 01:26am PT
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Don't forget the staple wars Bruce!
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rick sumner
Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
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Sep 15, 2013 - 01:30am PT
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You know canucks, you could fit half a dozen sierras in your coast range and hundreds of yosemites in the fjords. Flew past your little B.C. berg on a blue bird day Weds. and was greeted with an impressive sight.
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Todd Eastman
climber
Bellingham, WA
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Sep 15, 2013 - 01:32am PT
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Yo Bruce! What ya drinkin, eh?
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Greg Barnes
climber
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Sep 15, 2013 - 01:40am PT
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I'm really interested in seeing what Largo and others think about Alan's invitation.
Personally, I have mixed feelings. It would really come down to particular routes. For instance, Alan did most of the routes at the very popular Western Front, one of the most popular top-roping spots in Tuolumne. I don't think anyone should add any bolts to those - why when you can easily throw a toprope down? Doesn't make any sense.
But similar slabby routes on the east face of Lembert (where he also did solo FAs) - there are a ton of routes ranging from free solos to super runout to runout. I could see having a couple better protected over there. Not easy to set top-ropes.
And those 3 long Nelson solos on Fairview - if the quality is really good, I could see those being super fun. Maybe one of the three could be a roped route. Or maybe they should be left as solos...
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Crack-N-Up
Big Wall climber
South of the Mason Dixon line
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Sep 15, 2013 - 02:05am PT
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Anyone wanting to be a rock climber should understand that it comes with risk. Some established climbs have more risk than others.
Changing the nature of the climb is also the same as changing the name.
If adding bolts make sense, why not just aid drill it, so that later you can hang dog the whole way and brag to your friends you climbed it. Your either a climber or your not. Get used to taking chances if you want to be one.
Carderock, MD, had no bolts placed anywhere that I could remember. You either top roped or soled this area. Tradition has it, bolts were not acceptable there and I doubt any are there now.
Are adding bolts to established routes acceptable in your area, if not don't try to re-invent the wheel, Dumbass!
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Sep 15, 2013 - 02:20am PT
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We're rejecting your claim of ownership, not making one of our own. Saying "you don't own it" doesn't mean we're trying to. Nobody owns it.
-
Than that settles it. Since you don't own it, you have no right to change it according to your preferences.
I personally have no beef with retrobolting routes at 5.9 or below. Putting up unprotected 5.8 routes is a sure way to make a route no one will do. But once the route gets to 5.10 trad, that's expert terrain and an expert has a different game to play. Part of that game used to be the mental challenge of minimal impact and keeping the bolts down. I understand hat this ethic is no longer popular even though the normal active climber is WAY better than the climbers of my generation. A kind of disproportionate thing has occurred once people got used to grid bolted sport climbs, whereas the old adventure climbs seemed pointless as the mental game was entirely lost or unknown. Not by all, for sure.
But taking the mental game out of, say, the few bold routes on Middle Cathedral, is to really lose those climbs forever. I think the thing lost on many people here is the superb game of the mental climb, and in its place they want a merely technical route, with solid pro.
Hell, bolt it up. We had our fun. But you'll never convince me that forty years after the fact this isn't a step backwards. Maybe start with Stoner's Highway and whenever you start feeling the nerves getting in the way of your wilderness experience, slap in a bolt. We've already heard the voice saying that tradition counts for nothing, and that what the modern dood wants is king. So get to bolting and tell us how it goes.
I gotta wonder what a route like Black Primo would be like with sport bolts. Probably pretty fun. It scared us pretty good.
JL
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BG
Trad climber
JTree & Idyllwild
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Sep 15, 2013 - 02:23am PT
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Warbler wrote:It seems there are a few things all but the most extreme can agree on -
Runout routes have value as climbing experiences.
Lots of runout routes, particularly easy to moderate ones, would be great fun for the average climber if they were bolted like sport routes.
At this point in climbing's evolution, adding bolts to established climbs is unacceptable without the blessing of the first ascensionist, and even with that OK, lots of climbers find it unacceptable.
Adding bolts to any significant route in any popular area will almost surely lead to the removal of those bolts, the ensuing rock damage and followup conflicts in the local climbing community.
I concur.
Does the new generation really want to add 20 bolts to the Bachar Yerian, or The Edge on Tahquitz, or add 4 bolts to Stichter Quits at Josh?. I sure hope not. It would never stand. It would be construed as an act of vandalism, and the rock would suffer scars from the ensuing petty bolt war.
Listen to JL, Worral, Muir, and Higgins. There is great wisdom in their voice. They've all walked the walk, so they can talk the talk.
Respect the rock. Respect the FA. Respect local ethics and tradition. Don't chip holds. Don't add bolts to existing routes without permission from the first ascent party.
If you want to help the climbing community,and improve the safety of bolted routes, start by donating to the ASCA and help guys like Greg Barnes who are putting a lot of effort into replacing old bolts. It's hard work.
I often tell beginning climbers that ask about the risks of climbing that it really boils down to personal choice and judgement. You can make it as safe as you want. The risk is there if you want to take it- or not. You can toprope routes. Lead sport climbs or safe trad climbs. Lead runnout climbs. Free solo. If it's too scary of a climb you don't have to do it. It's really up to you.
Widespread retro bolting is a pandora's box we don't want to open.
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Greg Barnes
climber
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Sep 15, 2013 - 02:31am PT
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Add bolts to Stoner's? Hah hah...gone in 60 seconds...and the chopping would be done by plenty of younger folks.
Hopefully no one is talking about retrobolting classics - but in the case where the FA asks people to retrobolt lesser known or never climbed routes - tough call in my opinion - what do you think? I can see both sides, those that say that after a certain period of time even the FA shouldn't be able to change it, and those that say the FA should be able to retrobolt (or allow others to do so).
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Greg Barnes
climber
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Sep 15, 2013 - 02:52am PT
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I can sympathize with you Joe, battling orthodoxy can be tough. But you're sounding a lot like a zealot on the other side. I think your arguments are a bit thin, take the direct start to Central Pillar of Frenzy for example (poor topo in the guidebook, very runout with a couple pitons and 2 bolts for sustained face climbing, easy to TR with two 60m ropes from the p2 anchor on CPoF). Old-school 5.11d, 1979, probably really 5.12. How many boulder problems were people doing in the late '70s that were 5.12 slab with no micro-edges? Were people actually doing 5.13 slab boulder problems then (or now - again, no micro-edging slab - "real" slab)?
How many of these runout testpieces are actually big sandbags? No one ever does them, so maybe a lot of them have true 5.12 moves even though they are rated 5.11. And how many of these "5.13" boulder problems you refer to are overhanging? Take out any boulder problem that's too steep to stance drill on, look at the moves that people were doing at the same time period as they were doing these runout routes, then go check out the runout cruxes on those routes and compare. I bet the difference between the two is a lot smaller than the V-ratings-translated-to-YDS make it seem…particularly if you compare only boulder problems and routes with similar moves and angles.
I think there's just so much rock out there, new routes are where it's at. Run them out if you want, or bolt them tightly (or do both - add bolts right after your FA if you feel like it). And there are so very many sport routes around that it's getting pretty tough to argue that classic runout routes should be retrobolted. Shipoopi is next to the Bachar-Yerian…respect both.
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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Sep 15, 2013 - 03:34am PT
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jhedge is correct is saying that a new generation of climbers are coming, and they think differently then us "old farts." Remember when ALL rappel placed bolts got chopped at most areas in America?......
I am sort of on the fence with this issue. I was really impressed w/Alan Nelson's comments about retro-bolting his mad run-outs in Tuolumne Meadows;...good for him to "get over it"...so to speak. Craig Fry has said the same about any of his run-out routes. I feel the same way about any of my older routes that are run out and dangerous. Tucker Tech feels the same way about any of his older routes that are run out and dangerous. As far as routes like Bachar Yerian in the Meadows and The Edge on Tahquitz;.......those are routes people sac up to do........and they get done. Other routes may be classics if they had better protection;..but now they just sit as testement to days past where things were done differently.......presently, in 2013;..it's a tough call and a tough decision, and fuel for lots of discussion and many internet posts;...I think in the future, this issue will not be so heated and controversial. New generations will make up their own rules and not live by rules of old climbers who are long gone and climbed with different gear and attitudes.
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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Sep 15, 2013 - 03:52am PT
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Kevin;..you are correct;...just depends on the route, doesn't it.......I see all the different ideas about this;...I agree with everyone!....and that is the crux of this issue........seems like everyone's ideas and points make some sense;...or alot of sense. Time will sort this one out;...I don't think we have to figure this situation out tonite;..or this week, or this month...or even this year..................................................
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Sep 15, 2013 - 08:12am PT
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I feel that the key is is if the rout gets climbed and folks are inspired to work up to the challenge then it should stay runout and the only changes should be replaceing the existing old bolts. If a climb on the other hand never gets climbed and is a great line with a few rusted bolts gaurding it then the fa should be contacted and permission granted for a talented pro to fix the climb. Not everyone should be allowed to owne a drill! It takes a real touch and vision to create a great route. Not everyoneone has that!
Sometimes the difference between a botch job that never gets repeted and a 5 star classic is one perfectly placed bolt. Over bolting can completly ruin a slab climb. Fact is that Slab is as boreing as roofing (without the pay) when it is over bolted. Rogers rock NY has a a few 5 star 5.8 routes that average 4 bolts per 50m pitch that get climbed a lot. Some new kids came allong and rap bolted The matrix 5.8+ in the same style w/ 4 bolts per pitch. It is 5 stars and I lead it every time I go there. Obviously thease climbs as well as a bunch of high traffic classics on White Horse NH are deemed to be awsome slab climbs yet have abundant 40 and 50ft runouts. Sea of Holes on whitehorse has a 50ft runout on P3 yet the Webster guide lists it as well protected. That is the nature of slab climbing. I guess my point is that if a climb is slated for an upgrade it needs to be done by someone with a real feel for what makes a 5 star slab climb that will be a challenge that folks will strive for yet not a stupid death route or a sewn up snoozer..
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patrick compton
Trad climber
van
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Sep 15, 2013 - 08:42am PT
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Something that is being over looked here is that no one really wants to fall on a slab, no matter how close the bolts are.
Even if on some alternate Earth, these slabs were sport-bolted, 'working' or dogging the crap out of route isn't really practical at that angle. Cheese-gratering, breaking ankles, hitting ledges are all very real.
So what we are really talking about is, as Granite Girl said earlier, is taking the imminent death factor out of a select few. The straight-up solos seem a logical place to start.
Then it goes from the leader MUST not fall to probably not a good idea to fall. This is still pretty serious climbing, but you don't need to be ready to die on 5.10x that day.
One may even see a resurgence in interest in this style of climbing. As someone pointed out earlier, this angle of climbing simply isn't popular in and of itself.
A few bolts to allow a reasonable margin of living, but you still wouldn't want to fall, may build interest in the style and promote trying harder, bolder lines.
I remember Scarpelli saying in the early 90s when I was a local at the Voo that despite all the increases in fitness through sport climbing, no one wanted to do hard offwidths. Of course, that has really changed now. But would it have happened if the Voo didn't become a destination for the front range with easily accessible top-rope anchors and single pitches?
People need a way to train (in this case mentally) for these lines.
Maybe removable bolts? That way, there is just a small, almost invisible hole, and the leader knows that they are placing pro that wasn't originally there and they can make the conscious choice to do so at that moment.
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