Guns, Waiting Periods and Anger

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xtrmecat

Big Wall climber
Kalispell, Montanagonia
Aug 9, 2013 - 10:46am PT
Ron, Montana must have missed the waiting period boat also. Takes only minutes to do the paperwork and away you go with whatever in hand.
There is just so much progress to be made in a conversation with those armed with all the knowledge and "the facts".

Burly Bob
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Aug 9, 2013 - 11:20am PT
Yeah, yesterday I picked up a Sigg 938, spur of the moment.

Now I can sell my Colt Government .380
They're the same size but the Sigg is a 9mm.

What with the extra clips, 2 holsters, clip grip, "collector's" value, and original box, I should get well over a yard.

Maybe I should take it to a "gun show".
frank wyman

Mountain climber
montana
Aug 9, 2013 - 11:34am PT
Last week I traded a Llama 44 mag and some cash for a 96 Geo tracker, a handshake later and it was a done deal..
WBraun

climber
Aug 9, 2013 - 11:38am PT
The guy finally showed up in the alley.

I got the gun.

I'm gonna shoot Hedge in the ass with it.

It's a paint ball gun .... :-)
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Aug 9, 2013 - 12:30pm PT
Randy Grandstaff got shot in the ass by his cousin.
.22 magnum! OUCH
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Aug 9, 2013 - 12:44pm PT
blahblah- what do you mean re handguns? Just curious.

The Supreme Court found a constitutional right to individual ownership-- I disagree, and think the Court chose its own inaccurate history in making its opinion, but that's now the law of the land. As an aside, I've owned guns, have shot plenty and have no real dog in this fight.

The question now will be to what extent regulation will be allowed. In my opinion the NRA recognizes that is a losing issue in the courts and thus spends its efforts at the legislative / a.m. radio level.

OMG--An important aspect of District of Columbia v. Heller is that banning handguns (specifically) is unconstitutional.
Agree that it's clear from Heller that lots of regulation is and will be allowed. And if we keep electing Democrats as president, sooner-or-later the makeup of the USSC will change, and the 2nd Amendment will be "reinterpreted" as you suggest.

But I'll again put it out there, since no one took the bait the first time, and ksolem has also asked essentially the same thing:
What is the proper "standard liberal" interpretation of the 2nd Amendment?

That the National Guard has the right to have guns?

The "collective right" interpretation seems so intellectually dishonest that I can't believe that anyone really believes it--but 4 members of the Supreme Court profess to, and I expect that number will be at least 5 before too long.

I have my own theories--something like citizens do have the individual right to possess firearms, but they may be compelled to participate in militia-like training activities if they choose to exercise that right at least with respect to certain weapons. I fully admit that's just my "spew," is not and will not be the law of the land, etc.
Dr. Christ

Mountain climber
State of Mine
Aug 9, 2013 - 12:44pm PT
Toker, you idiot:

The Brady law provides that the
waiting period provisions of the law
were effective on February 28, 1994, and
cease to apply on November 30, 1998.
**Brady imposes a waiting period of 5
business days (defined in the statute as
days on which State offices are open)
before a licensee may sell, deliver, or
transfer a handgun** (other than the
return of a handgun to the person from
whom it was received) to a nonlicensed
individual.

http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/FR-1995-02-27/pdf/95-4886.pdf

WARNING: information contained in the ACTUAL implementation of the law may differ from your imagination.

Gun crime and gun murders dropped more during the 5 year period the interim waiting period was in place (1994-1999) than during any other period on record.


in order to see that [properly arming and equipping the people] be not [left unattended through carelessness], it will be [logically unavoidable] to assemble them once or twice in the course of a year.
- A. Hamilton, FEDERALIST 29
TradEddie

Trad climber
Philadelphia, PA
Aug 9, 2013 - 12:48pm PT
Madbolter, your intellectual rigor is at least more informative than the deranged delusions of some others here, but you're missing my point. Since the Federalist papers were written to promote the draft constitution, they obviously primarily discuss the Constitution so your challenge was somewhat skewed, yet I still found two principles espoused in the papers that did not make it to the constitution (ending slavery and non-necessity for a bill of rights).

I made no claim that the quoted essay supported my views, indeed I suggested otherwise, which bring us back to the validity of such papers.

Your original point was that the Federalist Papers detail the thinking of the founding fathers. Mine was that they detail the thinking only of a limited few of the founding fathers, and as in the example of slavery, could describe principles they held strongly that were intentionally not in the ratified document due to different opinions held by the majority. A federalist author describing activities for the militia (or any other topic) not elucidated in the Constitution may well have been describing the unanimous intent of the drafters, but may just as easily have been describing their personal view on a topic where the majority held sway to limit such purposes.

Still waiting to hear why second amendment rights are so special...

TE



Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Aug 9, 2013 - 12:50pm PT
Christ, want to see a dozen guns I bought from dealers from '94-'98 without waiting?

What a putz!!
Dr. Christ

Mountain climber
State of Mine
Aug 9, 2013 - 12:53pm PT
Toker, want to see the law... again. Just because YOU snuck past it using one of the loop holes, does NOT mean it did not exist... idiot.
Dr. Christ

Mountain climber
State of Mine
Aug 9, 2013 - 12:57pm PT
You people are far too stupid to own guns.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Aug 9, 2013 - 12:57pm PT
I didn't sneak past anything.

That provision of Brady was never put into effect. Bills get changed.


But some things stay the same, like you being a putz.
Dr. Christ

Mountain climber
State of Mine
Aug 9, 2013 - 01:08pm PT
Clearly reality is no match for your imagination.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Aug 9, 2013 - 01:19pm PT
Here's the direct quote, lifted from Federalist 29 ( on militia regulation ) free of Mr Christ's butchering :


"Little more can reasonably be aimed at, with respect to the people at large, than to have them properly armed and equipped; and in order to see that this be not neglected, it will be necessary to assemble them once or twice in the course of a year."



All the armed and equipped shooters I know assemble to shoot at least once or twice a month. Then there are guys like my uncle, who's at the range every morning.
Dr. Christ

Mountain climber
State of Mine
Aug 9, 2013 - 01:24pm PT
hahahaaaa... now substituting the precise definition of words is "butchering?" You guys would be so hilarious if you weren't advocating for easy access to guns on a whim.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Aug 9, 2013 - 01:29pm PT
You were doing more than "substituting the precise definition of words".

Dropping inconvenient parts of the sentence is butchering in my book. And then after re-writing the rest of it, you attributed it to Hamilton.
Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
Aug 9, 2013 - 01:36pm PT
Arguing about old words is irrelevant.

Our society has changed, our culture has changed.

Laws should be adapted to reflect our current social structure. We are no longer in the process of seceding from England.
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Aug 9, 2013 - 02:05pm PT
Our society has changed, our culture has changed.

Laws should be adapted to reflect our current social structure. We are no longer in the process of seceding from England.

Laws are changed all the time, and the Constitution has been amended 27 times.
Do you think the Constitution should just be ignored if you don't like what it says? How would you feel if you like what a particular law or aspect of the Constitution says, but the government just decides to ignore it, perhaps because someone in power thinks "our society has changed"?

Things aren't quite as simple as you would like them to be--but don't worry, this is in fact all just "spew," none of our opinions really matter much--you don't have to trouble your mind thinking about any of this if you don't want to.
ontheedgeandscaredtodeath

Social climber
SLO, Ca
Aug 9, 2013 - 02:08pm PT
Got it blah blah. I focused on the individual right in a home aspect rather than the type of gun. My own spew is that individuals have a right to own guns subject to far more restrictions than what currently exist.

I also think Scalia's opinion was so intellectually dishonest that it leaves itself open to question down the road. Mr. originalist certainly casts that doctrine aside when he wants a result.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Aug 9, 2013 - 02:18pm PT
The Bill of Rights was incorporated at the insistence of the Antifederalists as a condition for ratification. The reason for the second amendment establishing the PERSONAL civil right to weapons ownership is clear from Anti Federalist #29.


OBJECTIONS TO NATIONAL CONTROL OF THE MILITIA

“A DEMOCRATIC FEDERALIST,” appeared in “the Pennsylvania Packet,” October 23, 1787; following #29, #30 is excerpted from THE ADDRESS AND REASONS OF DISSENT OF THE MINORITY OF THE CONVENTION OF THE STATE OF PENNSYLVANIA TO THEIR CONSTITUENTS, December 12, 1787.



The absolute unqualified command that Congress have over the militia may be made instrumental to the destruction of all liberty both public and private; whether of a personal, civil or religious nature.

First, the personal liberty of every man, probably from sixteen to sixty years of age, may be destroyed by the power Congress have in organizing and governing of the militia. As militia they may be subjected to fines to any amount, levied in a military manner; they may be subjected to corporal punishments of the most disgraceful and humiliating kind; and to death itself, by the sentence of a court martial. To this our young men will be more immediately subjected, as a select militia, composed of them, will best answer the purposes of government.

Secondly, the rights of conscience may be violated, as there is no exemption of those persons who are conscientiously scrupulous of hearing arms. These compose a respectable proportion of the community in the State [Pennsylvania]. This is the more remarkable, because even when the distresses of the late war and the evident disaffection of many citizens of that description inflamed our passions, and when every person who was obliged to risk his own life must have been exasperated against such as on any account kept back from the common danger, yet even then, when outrage and violence might have been expected, the rights of conscience were held sacred.

At this momentous crisis, the framers of our State Constitution made the most express and decided declaration and stipulations in favor of the rights of conscience; but now, when no necessity exists, those dearest rights of men are left insecure.

Thirdly, the absolute command of Congress over the militia may be destructive of public liberty; for under the guidance of an arbitrary government, they may be made the unwilling instruments of tyranny. The militia of Pennsylvania may be marched to New England or Virginia to quell an insurrection occasioned by the most galling oppression, and aided by the standing army, they will no doubt be successful in subduing their liberty and independency. But in so doing, although the magnanimity of their minds will be extinguished, yet the meaner passions of resentment and revenge will be increased, and these in turn will be the ready and obedient instruments of despotism to enslave the others; and that with an irritated vengeance. Thus may the militia be made the instruments of crushing the last efforts of expiring liberty, of riveting the chains of despotism on their fellow-citizens, and on one another. This power can be exercised not only without violating the Constitution, but in strict conformity with it; it is calculated for this express purpose, and will doubtless be executed accordingly.

As this government will not enjoy the confidence of the people, but be executed by force, it will be a very expensive and burdensome government. The standing army must be numerous, and as a further support, it wilt be the policy of this government to multiply officers in every department; judges, collectors, tax-gatherers, excisemen and the whole host of revenue officers, will swarm over the land, devouring the hard earnings of the industrious like the locusts of old, impoverishing and desolating all before them . . .


http://www.rightsofthepeople.com/freedom_documents/anti_federalist_papers/anti_federalist_papers_29.php



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