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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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Jul 30, 2013 - 01:03pm PT
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Anyone ask before now? Should he have written it up in the AAC 25 years ago?
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blahblah
Gym climber
Boulder
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Jul 30, 2013 - 01:14pm PT
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And we have no idea what runouts he actually he did--remember he placed as much aid gear (at least pitons, perhaps other aid gear) on rappel as he felt like, in addition to the rap bolts he placed where presumably he couldn't get in a pin or anything else.
It's possible that he ran it out big time on easier ground and only put in bolts to protect the "hard" climbing, but it's just as possible he loaded the climb up with pitons and heads the whole way, except for where he couldn't and that's where he put in bolts.
Rossiter, who was clearly in cahoots with TB, didn't give the climb an "s" rating or indicate any other danger, but instead rather cryptically referred to the "enhanced SR."
Certainly possible that TB did some big runouts (after his 100 TRs), but I wouldn't even concede that point until we know more about the gear he placed on rappel.
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patrick compton
Trad climber
van
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Jul 30, 2013 - 01:21pm PT
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Is this the style known as the Lycra-point?
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Jul 30, 2013 - 01:22pm PT
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said what he did. No he didn't. He didn't leave anything anyone could repeat - and the route was fatally dangerous to boot. For nothing. He revealed a lie 25 years later and 2 weeks too late. Nobody has freed the pitch as it was left.
Yes Chris should have contacted him. However, that matter is yesterday's news and has been amended, please stay with the discussion here. Today's news: The bolts should stay regardless of TB's opinion on the matter. Chris saw the obvious and made the correct call on the route.
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FrankZappa
Trad climber
Hankster's crew
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Jul 30, 2013 - 01:30pm PT
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Total bull in my book.
Well Bob, that's like, you're opinion, man. A lot of people don't like the way you grid bolt things, and I'll tell you the same thing you and other bolters have told me: If you don't like it, go climb somewhere else.
In reading his comments I think he loved the routes and did it in the best syle he could do it in. Maybe it was bold for him. It does sound to me like is was somwhat incomplete (regarding the position of the anchor).
FFA of Evictor was done with gear in place. It set the stage for people to do it in better style.
FA of Grand Inquisitor was done placing the first bolt from a ladder, and although a little scary, it's a good routes.
FA of Hot Flyer was done by rap placing a bolt, copperheads and other fixed sketch gear, then retrolted. And it's probably a better route with the bolts.
Many of Christian Griffith's "bold" bolt routes were done on rappel or previously inspected, as was Doub Griffith (Eldo).
I'm not saying this was or would be the best route in the world, but I'm glad Chris can set his Ego aside and work with Thom to figure out a (hopefully) good solution.
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Jul 30, 2013 - 01:33pm PT
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Frank...what did I grid bolt? In fact a lot of the older routes I did in the 80's have had bolts added to them..No issues from me.
Frank (by the way who are you?)...by listing those routes are you trying to make a case for rebolting and that the style they done in a mistake? Sure sound like to me.
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blahblah
Gym climber
Boulder
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Jul 30, 2013 - 01:45pm PT
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Sounds like the guy who brought "slander" into this thread (which I hadn't really seen, just commentary on what happened) is doing a little slandering of his own?
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ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Social climber
SLO, Ca
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Jul 30, 2013 - 01:45pm PT
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Pre-inspected, rehearsed and rap-protected routes with run outs are bullsh#t. It's just a stupid style under any set of climbing "rules" and those climbs should be stripped or retro bolted regardless of what the "FA" party thinks.
During the mid to late 80s some funky stuff went down as sport tactics became commonplace. No doubt the resistance at the time led to some weird routes and strategies. That doesn't mean the current and future generations should live with those mistakes.
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fluffy
Trad climber
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Jul 30, 2013 - 02:00pm PT
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If it was put up as a trad route, then subsequent ascents would be obligated to respect it as such. It wasn't.
Why expect subsequent ascents to live up to a standard the FA didn't follow?
so 'trad' routes are the only routes that should require permission from the FA in order to add bolts?
edit: beat me to it Ron. great minds.... ;-)
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patrick compton
Trad climber
van
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Jul 30, 2013 - 02:10pm PT
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It is well established that he should have sought permission from the FA, and Chris has said so multiple times. What is in question is the dubious style it was done in and whether it should stay that way.
But in the end it sounds like murky tradition wins and bolts will be chopped back to some hybrid style. Sort of. Hurrah. Proud trad moment
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Jul 30, 2013 - 02:29pm PT
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Fluffy wrote: so 'trad' routes are the only routes that should require permission from the FA in order to add bolts?
edit: beat me to it Ron. great minds.... ;-)
Like all those aid routes in the Valley where they got permission to add bolts/beaks/holes/pins.
Great minds alright.
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fluffy
Trad climber
Colorado
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Jul 30, 2013 - 03:18pm PT
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so now we're using adding hardware to aid routes in the valley for justification of retrobolting?
lol
i might not have the greatest mind but at least i can follow some semblance of logic
this business of thom expecting other climbers to follow a standard he himself didn't adhere to, I'll just give you the benefit of the doubt and assume its buried upthread or over on MP but I didn't see it.
this discussion is now pointless and my dumb ass has overstayed my welcome. no one is going to change their minds and now facts have been superseded by bias, interpretations, emotions and opinions.
deep down we all know the way this went down was wrong and hopefully something was learned.
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Jul 30, 2013 - 05:22pm PT
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I've enjoyed a friendly dialogue with Thom Byrne. He has asked me to remove 5 of the 8 protection bolts I placed on Archangel and to keep my new two-bolt anchor intact.
Wow. This is pretty darn amazing, in every aspect.
Looks like y'all have some time to get on the new sport route before it reverts to its 'trad' status!
Chris, you've proven to be open with your approach. Still stand up in my book.
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patrick compton
Trad climber
van
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Jul 30, 2013 - 06:04pm PT
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Doink projects permadrawed 13c now with duct taped kneepads.
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philo
Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
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Jul 30, 2013 - 10:04pm PT
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All in all this has been an interesting thread to follow. It certainly got the ol' passion pump jumpin' for some folks. So at this stage I should probably keep my thoughts to myself. But when did that ever stop me before?
In the "real" world there is no hard and fast Law or Rule that unequivocally states a FA team owns the route from then on. Establishing a new route does not equate to ownership of the medium only the message. It would be more accurate to state that most of us climb by a code. A code of conduct developed within the mutually accepted ethics of our time. A code by which we measure our own successes and failures. Now it isn't surprising that ethics tweek and evolve with each new generation of climbers in fact it is to be expected. Routes change over time with advancements in gear and technique. New protection possibilities have made many fixed pins redundant and unnecessary. And I think that is a good thing.
Contacting the FA team and conferring is the right and decent thing to do but it is only really done because the ethic of our time says it ought to be done.
A first ascent is an expression of human ability, creativity and will. It is more akin to producing a piece of art. It is in my mind Performance Art. No one gets to buy the art they only get to try and experience it for them selves. You can buy, own and do what ever you want to a piece of art. But as you would not likely paint alterations to an Artist"s canvas you probably shouldn't alter an established route. The code I grew up with stated that you should always do a route in at least as good of a style as it's best ascent. Thus if an aid route went free you didn't go and aid it for example. It was a matter of respect for those before and a challenge to yourself. I for one always hope that much of the great achievements of the past will continue to be honored amid the Sturm und Drang of the each new generations growing pains.
Oh well that's my 29 & 1/2 cents worth. I'll crawl back in the politurd threads where I belong.
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Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Joshua Tree
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Jul 30, 2013 - 10:22pm PT
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Phil, this:
"The code I grew up with stated that you should always do a route in at least as good of a style as it's best ascent."
is either poorly worded, or bullsh#t. Unless you free soloed a hefty portion of the routes you've ever climbed, then you never lived up to this "code".
Bachar probably soloed 90% of the stuff I've ever done in JT, alot of it when I was in diapers. So by this dumbass "code" I should have never climbed those at all since I couldn't solo them and Bachar already had.
And how does that work for a beginner?
"Sorry pal, this was soloed in 1937, no rope for you"
"But I've never done this climbing stuff before"
"Toughen up buttercup, that's THE CODE"
"What if I fall?
"You'll die while respecting THE CODE"
"Can't I use a rope? Other people use ropes!"
"That is not THE CODE!"
Your code is a joke.
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goatboy smellz
climber
Nederland-GulfBreeze
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Jul 30, 2013 - 10:30pm PT
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You never hear skiers or kayakers argue about first descents.
I wonder why?
Climbers are territorial and like to attach their name to a piece of rock because it signifies their place in an unchanging environment in a constantly changing world.
All in all Boulder Canyon is haunted by many ascents of pedestrian climbs by dozens of folks that once held a "leave no trace let's top rope it", philosophy. Eventually those climbs were bolted by others who had no clue they were already climbed and claimed as FA's just to get their name on Mountain Project. It's the nature of the game, overall no big deal since those climbs are not all that and a bag of chips.
It's unfortunate our love for this game has degraded into who did what first and how we can profit and push our agendas in this game. I stopped respecting the blowhards, the soloists, and the professionals a long time ago in Boulder and other well tread areas since it stopped being about inspiring others and just making a buck.
Give me something new in Africa or South America or some other remote untrodden destination or even Rgolds recent micro TR on movement and then we can begin inspiring each other again.
thread drift/
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KP Ariza
climber
SCC
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Jul 30, 2013 - 10:50pm PT
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The code I grew up with stated that you should always do a route in at least as good of a style as it's best ascent.
Replace the word "best" in the above statement with the word 'first' and you might be on to something.
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philo
Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
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Jul 30, 2013 - 11:13pm PT
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I stand by what I said. You don't go do the Naked Edge in it's pins and aid FA style do you?
We always endeavored to eliminate aid moves on the walls not add to them.
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