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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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If the AAC did mess things up in the beginning it not like they are some dirt/scum bag group with evil intentions.
They have done some great things for climbers in the past and I think that trend will continue into the future.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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The misperception of each side is evident now in hindsight. The people of Eldorado Springs thought that the AAC's statements that they would not go forward with the hostel in the face of community resistance only required them to demonstrate that resistance.
The AAC thought it was negotiating a plan with the community that could, in principle, resolve the community issues.
While the Eldorado Springs community came up with "reasons" for their resistance to the plan, AAC thought it could come up with "solutions."
In the end we see that there are no "reasons" and thus no "solutions."
When the AAC persisted, the Eldorado Springs community interpreted this as a broken promise and a demonstration of the AAC's lack of integrity. When the AAC attempted to negotiate a solution to the community's objections and found those solutions rejected, with additional problems raised, it interpreted the community as not acting in "good faith."
The AAC could have better probed the community feelings before going down this path. Most likely they felt they did, but my guess is that it was rather informal and not a true reflection of the community (which seems obvious at this point). A more professional approach might be suggested in the future.
Eldorado Springs could also have said from the very beginning that they didn't want this in their community and there was no conditions for which they would accept it. Their need to justifying themselves has lead to the unfortunate posts to this thread (and elsewhere) which seem extremely hostile to the idea of visiting climbers. Right now I'd be hesitant to drive my car into the canyon for climbing, I have California plates and the threat of tire slashing and other vandalism (or worse) have been made. The community ought to be honest in its desires, and not try to justify them with reason.
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philo
Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
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Well said Bob.
Brad there are many intelligent people on this forum who are making reasoned arguments in favor of the AAC's intentions. I believe I am one of them. Some of the "locals" are also being polite but they are presenting a false sense of what is going on based on a knee jerk emotional response fueled by the dissent of a few. Again we are talking about the AAC here not a local speculative developer.
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Kinda like most republicans, when logic and truth won't work turn to fear. The boogie man is coming to get you.
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Todd Eastman
climber
Bellingham, WA
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Helene, the only pattern I see is that climbers that move next to an area they once visited for climbing don't want camping or hosteling to happen near them.
The distances of the proposed campground from residences in Gardiner are 200 to 500 yards. That is a pretty darned good buffer.
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Helene Donovan
Social climber
Eldorado Springs
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Thanks for the input Todd. The Eldo Lodge location would be a lot closer than 200 yards.
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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"Thanks for the input Todd. The Eldo Lodge location would be a lot closer than 200 yards."
Do you realize a hostel is not an open campground?
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philo
Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
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Parking issues, what parking issues?
I would like to know from the concerned citizens what use they would approve of for the post office property?
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Helene, and other Eldo Springers,
I believe that there is no way you would accept a hostel under any situation. Providing "information" regarding other AAC arrangements is irrelevant here. Those arrangements work or are being worked out. I don't see that the Eldo Springs community is willing to work things out, they just want this potential "problem" eliminated. It has nothing to do with "reason."
There may be a set of justifications that the Eldo Springs community would offer for their opposition, but certainly solutions could be found, as they have been in other places, to see a hostel placed in the community. It just isn't acceptable to you.
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philo
Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
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Ed, though they disingenuously imply that the whole of the town is up in arms it is not the whole community that is opposed to the AAC redevelopment plan. In fact they have only gotten 100 signers out of 585 residents. That is far from a majority. Maybe it is a case of squeaky wheels getting greased.
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ncrockclimber
climber
The Desert Oven
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The NIMBY-ism being displayed by SOME of the residents is really disappointing.
It is important to remember that less than 20% of the residents have signed a petition or expressed displeasure with the AAC's plans. Janet, Pitbull / Olive and a few of the other opponents of the AAC's plans want to give the impression that this is a community untied against this the hostel. The reality is that Janet and Pitbull / Olive represents a minority group of homeowners. What the other homeowners think about this project is not known. What we do know is that they did not sign a petition.
After wading through the meeting minutes posted online and reading this thread, I cannot see any reason for the AAC to work with Janet and Pitbull / Olive. Janet and Pitbull / Olive have their minds made up. If this project does move forward, the AAC will have to gain approval from the appropriate government agency. These processes almost always allow input from the community. Let the AAC and members of ES community (like Janet and Pitbull / Olive) work it out there.
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Philo...great old picture...which leads me say that in most months when I go get water (that use to be free bawa) that parking lot above the pool is empty...maybe rent some spots from the water company/pool.
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philo
Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
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Reading the same meeting minutes it is clear that the proposed use by the AAC is allowed in the zoning.
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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hard to imagine you follks in eldo springs could've done a worse job of presenting yourselves and your case.
"dingleberry" starts a thread asking all the climbers on this site to write letters or protest to the aac.
in succeeding posts, various eldo springs folks describe potential visiting climbers (and thus all the supertopo regulars) as drunks, dirtbags, corporate tools, gentrifying yuppies and pederasts. "pitbull" flails around and threatens violence and vandalism. these various views are then described as "sensible" and "consensus."
st is a pretty scruffy place, peopled by a whole lot of borderline personality types. pretty hard to make yourself look bad in that company, but you folks are managing it quite nicely.
buncha clem kaddilehopper nimbies.
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Helene, the only pattern I see ... The only pattern I see is a bunch of people freaking out over something that hasn't happened yet, then taking an ineffective passive-aggressive approach to dealing with it - which immediately blows up.
200-500 yds to the property line? What about the set-back? What about this example has anything to do with Eldo?
I would still love to see an apology from Penn. That lack of one gives me the impression the AAC is two-faced, divided and without remorse - therefore incompetent as an organization. Stupid e-mails from angry people happen all day, every day. They are generally followed very quickly by an apology.
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Instead of making the AAC the evil empire the locals should just be truthful and say the truth...leave our little white bread village alone, we don't want rich climbers, we don't want dirtbag climbers and we really don't want middle class climbers...period!
:-)
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ncrockclimber
climber
The Desert Oven
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If this use is allowed by the current zoning, and the AAC can create a plan that will satisfy the legal requirements (parking, maximum building footprint, etc), then the AAC should build the hostel. As a member, I support it. Janet and Pitbull / Olive have given the AAC no reason to want to go beyond the letter of the law and work with them. IMHO the "community" concerns expressed in this thread are rooted in NIMBY-ism. The AAC has no obligation to address them.
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Don Paul
Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
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I cannot see any reason for the AAC to work with Janet and Pitbull / Olive. Janet and Pitbull / Olive have their minds made up. If this project does move forward, the AAC will have to gain approval from the appropriate government agency. These processes almost always allow input from the community. Let the AAC and members of ES community (like Janet and Pitbull / Olive) work it out there.
Correct. It's a waste of time to try to negotiate with them. They think they can bully the AAC and the thing to do is to take the case to the zoning board, or whoever it is. There's no reason to think the locals can influence them to make an unfair decision.
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philo
Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
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Correct. It's a waste of time to try to negotiate with them. They think they can bully the AAC By calling the AAC bullies. ROTFLMAO.
Curiously there is nary a peep about this on Mountain Project.
Curious as to why the Nimbys are frothing their brew on ST but not on MP?
Perhaps the strength of their assumed consensus is as bogus as their math.
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