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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Why is it so hard for some of you to admit the Sherpa's might have really screwed up? They are human beings, not mythical creatures.
Jan has made her decision, regardless of the facts.
I think that if you were on an ice route, in sketchy conditions where several have died before, doing something technical, and I came along, and in spite of your repeated requests not to get on top of us, I did anyway, and knocked ice down one top of you, when we got off the slope, when I came over and told you that you were a bunch of motherf*ckers for being in my way...........
I would expect you to give me a knuckle sandwich (not just the *threat* of a knuckle sandwich, which is what happened, here)
But apparently because they are just the "help", and not "real" climbers, they aren't entitled to the same emotions that most climbers would feel...
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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For rockermike- I am an anthropologist. My research specialties are the Sherpa people and the cultural ecology of the central Himalaya. I've worked on a couple of foreign aid projects in Nepal for the Swiss and New Zealand governments. The latter includes the original drafts for the Sherpa history and culture sections of the Sagarmatha/Mt. Everest National Park guidebook and the original designs for the Sherpa museum in the park. Mostly though, I've made my living teaching Anthropology and Asian Studies to U.S. military and government employees overseas, for the University of Maryland, first in Europe and for the past 30 years, in Okinawa. I go back and forth to Nepal every couple of years. One of my main interests is the impact of tourism on the Sherpas.
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Dover
Trad climber
New England
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Jan,
I just wanted to say "Thank You" for all your insights. I've really learned a lot about cultural differences from your posts. It is so easy to step into 'stuff' when you are outside the culture.
I also appreciate your advocacy of the Sherpas and their struggle. From your telling of the story, I can readily understand their perspective. It is a valid one. You are a great friend to that people.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Thanks dover, I try.
For the Record - one more time.
I do not condone violence by anybody!
I am a social scientist and my task is to record what exists and try to figure out why. Of course I have my personal preferences and it's no secret that I admire the Sherpas. I am very well aware also that they use the threat of group violence to get people to conform their behavior to the group norm. Traditionally they lived in a situation where there was no government and no police force. Community pressure was all they had to maintain order. Even today when they're up on the mountain, beyond the reach of the police, that's all they have.
I don't believe they intended to kill Moro, Steck, and Griffith on their sacred mountain. I do believe they intended to let them know that all of the Sherpa climbers, not just a few, found their disrespect intolerable. They wanted Moro on his knees to apologize for insulting them and their mothers as such curses are taken much more seriously in their culture than ours. I am sure they also intended to scare the wits out of the three and chase them off the mountain which they did. The only thing they did wrong from their own point of view was draw blood after being jostled by a hapless observer who led them to believe there would be a physical fight. Drawing blood, even when killing an animal is considered very bad.
I think the Sherpas judged it pretty well from all the various sources I have read. The majority opinion among Sherpas for sure and the people there to climb the mountain, who are the source of their livelihood, is that the three western climbers used the Sherpa paths, ladders, and ropes through the Khumbu icefall multiple times and then ignored the Sherpa's safety and honor by tromping past them while they laid more fixed line. As long as they used the fixed ropes down below they were not doing a completely independent climb as claimed and were subject to the same rules of the mountain as everybody else, and their claims to total independence, like so many before them, were deemed hypocritical.
I dare say if the three climbers involved were rich noobs rather than world famous mountaineers, most people here would side with the Sherpas which represents yet more hypocrisy it seems to me. In the end, the way I see it, the three alpinists involved have brought yet more regulation to the mountain and only strengthened the Sherpa's position. While true climbers will deplore what Everest has become, it is what it is, and the actions of Moro, Steck, and Griffith have narrowed the possibilities for independent climbers even further. I am of course interested in other interpretations.
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adatesman
climber
philadelphia, pa
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From a mostly lurker, Jan- you're awesome. :)
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kolos
climber
Hungary
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Jan,
First of all thanks for the clear statement about the disapproval of the violence. Unfortunately many messages posted by you seemed to me as a justification of these acts.
I don't believe they intended to kill Moro, Steck, and Griffith on their sacred mountain. I do believe they intended to let them know that all of the Sherpa climbers, not just a few, found their disrespect intolerable. They wanted Moro on his knees to apologize for insulting them and their mothers as such curses are taken much more seriously in their culture than ours. I am sure they also intended to scare the wits out of the three and chase them off the mountain which they did. The only thing they did wrong from their own point of view was draw blood after being jostled by a hapless observer who led them to believe there would be a physical fight. Drawing blood, even when killing an animal is considered very bad.
One paragraph and many things to react on:
Maybe they did not want to kill the 3 climbers, but throwing big stones into a tent and the alleged pen knife usage does not really support this point. These acts had the potential to get very serious or fatal. Thank God, the brave woman was around and your hypothesis was not tested.
Disrespect. I think this is really the point. Or rather one or couple of hurted egos. You immediately jump in the middle of the scene and start that the western climbers used ugly words on the Sherpas and their mothers. Yes, that is true. But why??? As far as I see this was triggered by the Sherpa leader who abseiled on the 3 climbers who were on an icefall without belay. How would you react??? This was also a very dangerous maneuver which could have been lethal.
The next question: Had the 3 climbers the right to be there on that very day? I think the answer is yes. They had the same rights on the mountain as the Sherpas: all of them paid a price for Nepal to have a go on the highest mountain of the world. The Sherpas were there because the expeditions which employed them paid for the mountain. Actually Moro and co. already established a tent in 3rd camp so as I understood they were well ahead of the commercial expeditions. Their route did not interfere with the Sherpas until that point. Since they wanted to go to their tent they had to cross the fixing line. Apparently they did this with great care and nobody was hurt. Except the ego of the leader who probably felt the the fast-moving westerners abash him in front of the other Sherpas.
I think the Sherpas judged it pretty well from all the various sources I have read. The majority opinion among Sherpas for sure and the people there to climb the mountain, who are the source of their livelihood, is that the three western climbers used the Sherpa paths, ladders, and ropes through the Khumbu icefall multiple times and then ignored the Sherpa's safety and honor by tromping past them while they laid more fixed line. As long as they used the fixed ropes down below they were not doing a completely independent climb as claimed and were subject to the same rules of the mountain as everybody else, and their claims to total independence, like so many before them, were deemed hypocritical. The usage of the Khumbu icefall "infrastructure" is a big question. I think that the 3 climbers paid for this part since this is essential to get into position on a certain part of the mountain. If they did not then this can be criticized (nobody came forward with this as far as I know) but no way can be a justification of the further acts.
Did they ignore the Sherpas safety or honor? I think the Sherpas safety and honor was 1000 other times and 1000 times more ignored and compromised during the Everest climbs. We all know cases when these brave men were sent to drag down some halfdead millionaire as#@&%e westerner from the mountain who got in that position because of their inabilities and the bad judgment of the commercial expedition bosses. And are you really sure that this was the first time that swear words were used at Sherpas and their mothers? It is a shame but I am quite sure that this happens on a daily basis in the camps. Still we do not see a mob with covered faces to search for their truth.
No, I think this is really the "bad apple" case. It is sad to say but nothing extraordinary happened on the mountain that day. Nothing which does not happen 1000 times in a season. A couple of hurt ego drove a lot of other companion crazy using his power and position. I think a disservice to the normal majority if we try to explain this situation with cultural differences.
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bhilden
Trad climber
Mountain View, CA
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I keep hearing everyone talking about how the sherpa's safety was put at risk. In reading the accounts of Moro and Steck, the sherpas, while tied into the ropes on the Lohtse face swung ice axes at both Steck and Moro while they were climbing unroped.
What's that all about? No mob mentality there. Just an upset sherpa who was trying to knock an unroped climber off a 50-degree ice face.
And, couldn't you make the point that if the sherpas are going to make a living by being paid by Westerner's money that the sherpas should make an attempt to understand the culture of those who are paying them?
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crankster
Trad climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
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Beg on your knees for forgiveness or we might kill you. Give me a f*#king break. Some of these lunatic Sherpa's need to go to jail. I'm sick of all this apologizing for them.
Jan, you're starting to make me ill. Ken already has.
No f*#king ice rained down on the poor, innocent Sherpa's. They got their pride and honor hurt, not their bodies. If they don't like it up there they should get a job doing something else.
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crankster
Trad climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
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Go f*#k yourself couchpotato
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couchmaster
climber
pdx
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Douchster said: "Go f*#k yourself couchpotato"
LOL!! See what I mean. RIGHT ON CUE! You are letting your inner petulant child out I see. ROTFLMOA!!
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crankster
Trad climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
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You sided with the Sherpa's immediately, Couchpotato. Doubt you've ever done any climbing except out of bed. Out in the real world, dickhead, ice and rocks get knocked onto fellow climbers all the time. Sure, you yell at them, perhaps give them hell in the parking lot.
But you don't have a license to attack them with a mob and make them beg forgiveness, threatening to kill them with rocks and ice ices.
You are a first rate idiot. I've read your posts and you make Ron sound like a genius.
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Betelnut
Mountain climber
So. California
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Do people like Couchmaster, Jan, et all, read any of the 3 climbers accounts of the incident? It does seem like they have made up their minds based on their overall view of the Sherpa people and not what actually happened on the mountain in this incident.
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abrams
Sport climber
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Never been to that altitude but does it change the moronic work of pounding in snow stakes and clipping rope (fixing) into rocket science?
The slope has bulges but looks like a highway. Lots of room for two teams in parallel.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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That photo is from the western cwym just above camp 2 which is on the flat. The Lhotse face is the steep one rising to the far right of the photo. It is not uncommon for people to be sweating in the cwym and being blown about by cold winds further up.
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crankster
Trad climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
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Wrong, Jan. The photo is not on the flat, but on the steeper slope below Camp 3.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Then how come it looks so much steeper on the second photo posted?
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crankster
Trad climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
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You're looking straight at a slope, always looks steeper. Been on many a climb saying " yikes, that looks steep". Thankfully, when you get to the base it's not as dire.
First photo was not my post, btw.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Sorry. I just corrected that. Unfortunately I don't know off hand exactly what the angle of the Lhotse wall is. bhilden claimed in his post above that it is 50 degrees.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Apparently they did this with great care and nobody was hurt.
So let's see if I understand your logic: If I take a gun, and with great care fire it at your wife and children so as to hit all around them within a foot, without any injury whatsoever, you'd have no problem.
After all, you are arguing, no harm, no foul?
But then what is this argument about abseiling? Also no one hurt.
So what is your logic?
And are you really sure that this was the first time that swear words were used at Sherpas and their mothers? It is a shame but I am quite sure that this happens on a daily basis in the camps.
So you are basing your argument on speculation based on....what? Speculation? Your expectation of how you would act in treating Sherpa?
I'm fairly sure, based on my personal knowledge of a number of Everest climbers, that if you treated your Sherpa that way, daily, that OTHER CLIMBERS would give you a learning experience.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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This attempt to portray Sherpa as attempting murder by swinging axes at, abseiling onto these poor unroped climbers is disgusting. Trolls, of course, which speaks only of the posters involved, who typically are afraid of putting their names to their opinions.
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