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John M
climber
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Mar 30, 2013 - 01:14pm PT
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your brain is calcified with hatred,
Man, I would say the same thing about you.
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rick sumner
Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
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Mar 30, 2013 - 01:26pm PT
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Yes John M you may be correct. I do have a hatred for the people responsible for greedily and systematically dismantling the hopes of a bright future for this country. You see John, i have kids and ,like my parents before me, i want them to have the same opportunities i had. You guys on this forum, by virtue of being climbers who cherish freedom , have a possibility of rejecting the total loss of freedom of the cradle to grave safety net (actually total government control) that is being foisted upon us disguised as "social justice".
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Gary
Social climber
Right outside of Delacroix
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Mar 30, 2013 - 08:33pm PT
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Yes John M you may be correct. I do have a hatred for the people responsible for greedily and systematically dismantling the hopes of a bright future for this country.
Couldn't agree with you more, Rick Summer. We need to tell those Wall Street thieves to take a hike. We can no longer afford to carry the weight of those capitalist leeches on our backs. It's time for them to pull their own weight.
It's time the work ethic got a little respect in this country.
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Captain...or Skully
climber
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Mar 30, 2013 - 10:19pm PT
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But how will we shoot the Wall Street as#@&%es in the head with no guns?
You can't deny that they richly deserve it.
edit: Frickin' Tiggit. You believe what you're told to, Drone.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Mar 30, 2013 - 10:27pm PT
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"Men are qualified for liberty in exact proportion to their disposition to put moral chains upon their own appetites. Society cannot exist, unless a controlling power upon will and appetite be placed somewhere; and the less of it there is within, the more there must be without. It is ordained in the eternal constitution of things, that men of intemperate minds cannot be free. Their passions forge their fetters."
-Edmund Burke
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John M
climber
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Mar 30, 2013 - 10:33pm PT
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Every city on that list is in a country that has outlawed guns.
This list?
Vienna, Zurich, Geneva, Vancouver, Auckland and...Dusseldorf!
They can own guns in these countries. What are you talking about? They certainly own guns in Canada.
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rick sumner
Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
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Mar 30, 2013 - 11:44pm PT
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Just got back from a trip to the east side of Winnemucca Lake (dry since about 1910 when the inlet channel was diverted for irrigation for ranchers and farmers) to explore the Fishbone Cave area, which some controversial archaeological evidence points to paleoindian occupation as early as 15,000 years ago.Anyway i wanted to photograph any rock art and stand in the caves, looking out over an ancient lake, to get a feel for the place and imagine what those early occupants might have seen and felt so long ago.
Those stone age frontiersman were among the first wave of humans to set foot in the western hemisphere ,a frontier far wilder and less known to them than any colonists we might send to Mars.They lived, hit and miss i imagine, only by their code of conduct within the family groups and as dictated by the natural laws of this new land.They shared the land with the now extinct mega mammals; Mammoths, mastodons, giant sloth,Bison Antiquis (far larger than modern bison),Horse, Camel,Giant Beaver, and many more. There were also the familiar modern Bighorn Sheep, Deer,Elk,Pronghorn Antelope,Ducks,Geese,Etc., which they hunted or captured for food. There competition were the mega carnivores (now extinct) Short Face Bears, Saber Tooth Cats, American Lion, Dire Wolf, all of which were far larger and more dangerous than their modern counterparts.
The plants were all new also, nobody knew what was poisonous or nutritious or how to prepare it so it wasn't the former.Their isolation was total, their survival was in doubt, they stayed alive only by wit of mind and sweat of brow. Because of all this they lived to the utmost of human potential and were rewarded by complete freedom of spirit unhindered in its creative expression.
Now fast forward fifteen millennium to today in America which has often been referred to as the "last great hope of mankind". We've largely halted our expansion outwards, the nearby solar neighborhood being the logical next frontier, and instead have taken a turn inwards into the information age.While all good and well for efficiency and entertainment the IT world is largely diversionary and certainly no substitute for the human spirit's need for frontiers.We are at our best pushing the envelope both mentally and physically.
We have a 60,000 page tax code as the indecipherable law of the land,we have a homeland security to keep us all safe from each other,we have an EPA whose function now seems to be to stifle all development rather than encouraging environmentally sound development,we have the worlds most powerful military
constantly deployed nation building (or ruining) and policing the planet lest terror reach our shore,we have a FEMA to save our property and homes in the event we come face to face with the natural ferocity of nature,we have an Energy and Interior department engaged in picking losers over winners with the taxpayers dime,we have an Education Department and public school system that seemingly put the systems employee's welfare as a priority over education of children,we have a new, supposedly all inclusive, health care system that will likely leave multitudes uncovered and subject many categories of middle class to unaffordable costs, Etc., Etc. In short we have laws and regulations covering virtually all aspects of our lives, promote losers over winners, stifle anything but virtual creativity, and we (the working people be they rich or poor) are supposed to be good little consumers and taxpayers with ever larger chunks of our incomes being eroded or taxed away.
Who do we have to thank for all this? Personally, i don't blame the corporations,the environmentalists lobby, the lawyers lobby,the union's lobby's, state and local lobby's, etc. etc. No ,i blame the corrupted political system that is filled with crooks, cronies, and rigid idealogues
of both parties. Now they (one party or another) have spent vast amounts of time and treasure to convince their respective supporters that their path is the path of intelligence,compassion,forward progress while representing the opposing party as responsible for all that ails us as a country. It amazes me that they still, either party, have gullible supporters. Folks, the system has been overwhelmingly perverted by career politicians whose primary concerns are to maintain their reign on power while enriching themselves.Our wealth and potential is being redistributed to this new ruling class and those they represent while a large portion of the citizenry have been duped into confrontational debate over which party is worse than the other.
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Gary
Social climber
Right outside of Delacroix
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[Click to View YouTube Video]
The workers know perfectly well that the thieves don't wake up at 6 in the morning. The real thieves, those who enrich themselves by robbing the fruits of our labors are those capitalist sons-of-bitches.
Durruti, of course, is correct. Unfortunately in America, we have been lied to for so long, and so well, that we no longer know who are the producers and who are the leeches. We despise and have no respect for honest work and instead hold paper shuffling conmen in the highest regards.
God save the Republic.
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BBA
climber
OF
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I have a simple question, given the first chart from the video on the first post: How do you redistribute wealth in the U.S. if not by changing the tax code to bring it back to a more progressive mode?
If one cannot propose another solution then isn't the argument over?
A society with too great inequalities may become unstable. Nations have a history of revolutions in wealth inequality has been causative, and the results are usually worse than a change in the tax code.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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I have a simple question, given the first chart from the video on the first post: How do you redistribute wealth in the U.S. if not by changing the tax code to bring it back to a more progressive mode?
Bill, I have to answer that with another question. If income is the change in wealth, doesn't making the tax code more "progressive" merely make it harder for anyone new to enter the highest wealth strata?
The arguments of those who use the data estimating the current distribution of wealth to decry that "the rich just get richer" rest on an implicit assumption that the identity of "the rich" remains relatively constant over time. I personally think reality contradicts that assumption, and the relatively scant data on the subject backs this up.
Specifically, comparing the current, static wealth distribution says nothing about whether a household with low income now will remain one with low income in the future. Time series studies of individual households suggest that this is not the case -- household incomes tend to rise over time, and households still tend to move up, not down, in economic well-being.
That said, the trend has not been steady. One famous study by the Boston Fed showed that the rate of household upward mobility has, in fact, lessened. Ironically, though, that decline started not in the 1980's, or the 2000's, when marginal tax rates on the highest incomes decreased, but in the 1990's, when those rates increased. http://www.bos.frb.org/economic/wp/wp2009/wp0907.pdf
What I find particularly worrisome about that study is not the obvious, viz. that how much you start with affects how much you end with. Rather, I find particularly troubling the conclusion that upward mobility for black households in particular has gotten harder over the study period (from 1967-2004). To me that shows at least two things: significant barriers to prosperity remain for huge numbers of black households (not surprising) and most of government policy designed to help the situation has either been ineffective or counterproductive.
I'd love to see some rigorous treatment of the latter possibility.
John
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Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Joshua Tree
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"If income is the change in wealth"
Income is not the change in wealth, it is one variable.
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BBA
climber
OF
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John - I'm looking for something clear and simple. The terms used and the the reality that exists are clear enough. I just want to know by what means you make money go from one group to another in our democratic, rule of law system? I don't think you answered that.
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Gary
Social climber
Right outside of Delacroix
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BBA, it's called being a thief. Dave points out that many thieves don't start out as top dog, but that does not change their status. They are leeches that suck the blood of the producers, plain and simple.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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At about 8-9 min the origin of this thinking is explained, but you really should watch the whole thing.
[Click to View YouTube Video]
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BBA
climber
OF
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I'm not looking for an answer that says some are thieves or how things got this way. People who think my proposition is correct should hold their peace. Let's hear someone who has written passionately that tax change is bad to tell what the alternative is. Consider it a thought experiment.
What is your a simple answer to this: How do you redistribute wealth in the U.S. if not by changing the tax code to bring it back to a more progressive mode?
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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BBA...We could start re-distributing wealth by having a judicial system that enforces long standing law in a more equitable manner...Petty thief steals TV and gets 1 year in the hooska...Enron steals billions and the perpatrators might have to do time in a country club prison while the victims lose their life savings...? ...Is anything more perverted than our judicial system...?
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Dropline
Mountain climber
Somewhere Up There
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I'm looking for something clear and simple. The terms used and the the reality that exists are clear enough. I just want to know by what means you make money go from one group to another in our democratic, rule of law system?
Read The Millionaire Next Door
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BBA
climber
OF
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Oh well. I didn't want to hear people agreeing with me or coming up with tiny solutions like convicting the Enron crooks. I know the answer to my question - unless some god or gods really exist and miraculously do the redistribution. You never know now that the Pope is kissing the feet of the poor, unless it's just another priestly fetish.
I suppose one could posit no growing wealth distribution problem, but even the Economist and the WSJ says there is one.
If John's statement is the best the right can offer, they have nada. I vote for Dr. F's opinion(s) and gracefully retire from this thread.
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Gary
Social climber
Right outside of Delacroix
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How do you redistribute wealth in the U.S.
The correct question is how do you STOP redistribution of wealth in this country.
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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How do you stop trickle- up economics or in construction lingo , wicking....?
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