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defective detective
Trad climber
da gunks
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Feb 25, 2013 - 01:56pm PT
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its nice and fun to think climbing is important and significant and its always a lot of fun to manufacture outrage over morally ambiguous sh#t
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mechrist
Gym climber
South of Heaven
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Feb 25, 2013 - 02:03pm PT
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its always a lot of fun to manufacture outrage over morally ambiguous sh#t
I know!
Like that time I added bolts to B-Y. It isn't like I even changed any of the holds. Or that time I couldn't get my fingers under the Great Roof. A couple swings of the hammer and BAM... 5.7 traverse that anyone can do. You are welcome.
Totally ambiguous.
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crunch
Social climber
CO
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Feb 25, 2013 - 02:16pm PT
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Ironically, all the fuss and publicity that internet discussions like this bring make it far more likely that land managers will take notice of hold alteration and take action, if they ever do at all, and as far as that goes, nobody posting here knows of that ever happening.
So the effort to shame the perpetrator into desisting, which his critics are enthusiastically attempting to do here, actually increases the likelihood that their liberties, which they fear he is threatening, will actually be taken away.
Hmmmm....
That argument can be turned on its head, Warbler. If such behavior is ignored it will lead to more chipping, by more people, in more places.
Given the level of anger and condemnation that always ensues, I'm amazed that any climbers would think it's okay to do what's going on in the video. Yet, once a decade or so, this kind of controversy erupts.
To ignore it is to encourage more climbers to act the same way. Eventually something will be noticed by non-climbers. And what's our response then, with widespread chipping all over our crags and boulders?
Or else some well-meaning but misguided person, encouraged by the lack of condemnation, carves a couple jugs on some iconic boulder problem, like, say, Midnight Lightning. You expect climbers to keep quiet then? What does the Access Fund, our representatives, for better or worse, say then?
Climbing ethics or rules or guidelines or morals, call 'em what you will, are flawed and imperfect but they are all we have for negotiating our access.
Unpleasant though the whole ordeal is for Ivan Greene (who I've never met, is being somewhat scapegoated here, and is probably a fine person in real life), and though this fuss does potentially attract land managers' attention, I think the community's condemnation to the video is appropriate.
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Dingus McGee
Social climber
Laramie
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Feb 25, 2013 - 02:27pm PT
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mechrist,
of or relating to principles of right and wrong in behavior
Now understand this: deciding whether to kill or not falls into this category!
Go ask your petit dictionary what is the difference between ethical decisions and moral decisions?
You have not done this. D- incomplete
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mechrist
Gym climber
South of Heaven
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Feb 25, 2013 - 02:40pm PT
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I don't have the guide, but Rock Cricket says...
Bouldering in the Shawangunks 2nd edition, Ivan Greene & Marc Russo
"ETHICS AND UNDERSTANDINGS:
Keep it simple. Leave the rocks the way they are. No chipping, filling, sculpting, etc. of anything on the boulders.."
He states what constitutes ethical conduct in a guidebook. I have to assume that reflects his own moral beliefs because I don't have enough evidence (or desire) to call him a blatant liar. He then violates those ethics, not once but several times, not openly but secretly. And you are claiming that doesn't fall under "immoral behavior?"
Fuking philosophers!
edit: If his lawyer releases a statement that says he believes he did nothing wrong, I will concede. Until then, consider the evidence.
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Don Paul
Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
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Feb 25, 2013 - 02:50pm PT
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I just realized this was at the Gunks. It's totally unacceptable, since that area is always at risk and the best part, skytop, is closed to climbing. This is from the second link in the OP:
One such instance happened last year in the 'Gunks, a popular bouldering area in New York State. ... Other local climbers began noticing that the project wasn't the only one that got chipped in the area. Another local stated, "We started to see these problems that were completely manufactured- like every hold. It was happening all over. We had suspicions about who it was, but there isn't exactly a police force in the boulders to prevent this stuff from happening."
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Dingus McGee
Social climber
Laramie
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Feb 25, 2013 - 03:03pm PT
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merchrist
all this talk is heresy. Get a take on what is admissible evidence if you seriously want to convince.
You are entitled to your own opinions but not to claim what you make up as fact.
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survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
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Feb 25, 2013 - 03:05pm PT
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So Dingus McGee, you're defending his actions?
Sorry, don't have time to read the thread.
Looks clear "cut" to me, but I've only been at this for 36 years, so what do I know?
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Don Paul
Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
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Feb 25, 2013 - 03:08pm PT
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Not true Dingus. The video would be admissible against Ivan Greene and could be authenticated by anyone who could identify those boulders. They don't have to have seen the chipping, just the boulders. That's how authentication of photos and videos works under the federal rules of evidence.
* For example, its common to take a picture of a traffic intersection, then someone testifies that this is an accurate photo of it, but that person didn't actually see the accident that occurred there. If there were skid marks on the pavement, he could authenticate them too, if he saw them.
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mechrist
Gym climber
South of Heaven
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Feb 25, 2013 - 03:12pm PT
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hahahaaaaa... now the issue is whether it is admissible evidence.... pathetic.
This isn't a court of law and even if it were, I'm guessing it would still be admissible evidence. This is a community discussing the IMMORAL behavior of someone caught on video damaging a shared resource. You don't even have to be a climber to know that what he did was wrong. And you have to be pretty dense or in a state of perpetual confusion to pretend it was not a moral transgression.
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Dingus McGee
Social climber
Laramie
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Feb 25, 2013 - 03:27pm PT
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Don Paul,
Whoa, they can say this looks like the boulders in such and such a place.
But they fail when ask whether they know the movie took place when the boulder chipping took place. i.e. you need to establish that in fact the closeup of the chiseling was on these boulders at this time. A movie does not establish such coherence.
But then in fact when they say they seen all this we have way more than a movie, we have the testimony!! And that is what I said in the first place.
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Dingus McGee
Social climber
Laramie
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Feb 25, 2013 - 03:29pm PT
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survival,
what have you been at for 36 years? chipping, looking for chipping. Please give me a clue.
I have no need to defend his actions for I do not think the movie established the degree of coherence to convict.
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mechrist
Gym climber
South of Heaven
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Feb 25, 2013 - 03:37pm PT
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i.e. you need to establish that in fact the closeup of the chiseling was on these boulders at this time.
No you don't! There is no reason you have to establish that the particular holds at the end of the video were created by the actions in the video.
You only have to establish that he is using chisels and a sledge to damage the rock and sculpt the holds. That is clearly established in the video.
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patrick compton
Trad climber
van
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Feb 25, 2013 - 03:38pm PT
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If removing a half pound of rock with a hammer and chisel is immoral to you, then google trundling videos.
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Alan Rubin
climber
Amherst,MA.
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Feb 25, 2013 - 04:08pm PT
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While I understand Warbler's concern, I totally agree with Crunch's evaluation. While there is risk in exposing our dirty laundry, there is a greater risk in not acting to stop it---and public exposure within the community is the best--legal--way of doing this.
In response to Dingus, while this matter shouldn't be "thread-drifted" into an evidence seminar, evidentiary issues do happen to be a topic I know something about. Don is correct, the video, ideally authenticated by the person who shot it, would definitely be admissible evidence in a court proceeding.
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Dingus McGee
Social climber
Laramie
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Feb 25, 2013 - 04:20pm PT
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Alan Rubin,
exactly as I said, it is the person's testimmony that carries far more weight than a movie.
With his testimony you don't need the movie.
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Don Paul
Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
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Feb 25, 2013 - 04:26pm PT
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"While there is risk in exposing our dirty laundry, there is a greater risk in not acting to stop it...." ~ POPE BENEDICT XVI
No wait, that was some guy on supertopo talking about chipping holds!
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Dingus McGee
Social climber
Laramie
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Feb 25, 2013 - 04:36pm PT
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Alan Rubin,
you can be assured that the wimpmasters WILL go to the land managers and use big Government to hedge their point.
They are victims of every sort of real and imagined calamity to their public land.
I suspect a land manger would read this thread and laugh. It's job fare for them.
And ironically these wimpmasters are in our group. Let the folly roll on!
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