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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Dec 26, 2012 - 02:45pm PT
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Well, JE, there does seem a need for more education. For example, that the rate of violent/firearm crime in the US (and Canada) has steadily and significantly dropped over the last 30 years - with exceptions, of course. There's no doubt about it, although there is debate as to the reasons. Also, beliefs that ownership of more/bigger weapons will actually protect a member of the general public, without significant, regular training and considerable luck. As pointed out elsewhere, the likelihood that even a trained, prepared person with a handgun is going to slow down let alone stop someone with an assault rifle is pretty small - if nothing else, an assault rifle is much more accurate at a distance.
You're probably right - it'd take longer for tighter laws to affect ownership by serious criminals of prohibited weapons, than for the public as a whole. (Not that career criminals usually indulge in mass murder of innocents...) Either way, they won't care, and in any case really only the police have the equipment and skills to take care of them. Serious criminals usually don't prey directly on the general public anyway.
If it simply reduces the number of repeated grotesque mass murders, that'd be a good start. You have to start somewhere.
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eeyonkee
Trad climber
Golden, CO
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Dec 26, 2012 - 02:52pm PT
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Well said, MH.
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Dec 26, 2012 - 03:15pm PT
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jghedge writes:
"Wouldn't something have to be organized before it could be regulated?"
Who is to do the regulating?
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Dec 26, 2012 - 03:28pm PT
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Parenting and family units have never never been more healthy or more strong.
All that stuff you wrote is delusion.
Two generations ago most fathers were spending their nights in the bar and beating their kids either verbally or physically.
What you write is not backed up by anecdotal or statistical data.
A bad dad is the exception these days and not the rule.
That's a surprising observation to me, Riley. What I've seen here in the poverty capital of California is that there are fewer dads around, period. I'd love to see statistics that show if or how the family unit has changed since, say, the end of World War II. I'm hoping you, or another reader, can point me to them.
Thanks.
john
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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Dec 26, 2012 - 03:31pm PT
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Riley,
Obviously there have always been violent people and that will never change. You need to seperate those people's violent tendencies from whatever tools they choose to harm people with. Such a person is a threat no matter what.
If firearms did indeed 'cause' people to become violent you'd be staring at a statistical vertical wall over the past few years. That hasn't happened, in fact, it's declined.
I agree that the recent crop of first-person shoot 'em ups can't be good for small kids and young adolescents. I didn't play these until my early 30's and was amazed at the level of detail and life-like graphics. Pretending to be sneaking up behind people and shooting them in the head or slicing their necks can't be a good thing for a developing mind. I could certainly see something like this contributing to future aggression and violence.
I still think the recent bumper crop of mass-random killings/stabbings/etc is the cusp of something very different. These are psychotic breaks where the killer generally kills themselves. We already have absolute proof that other drugs can cause such psychotic rage. There's no reason to suspect the possibility otherwise with the latest multi-billion dollar bumper crop of head 'medications'.
Why is it we've seen no lists of everything these killers was taking?
What's the first question you ask when someone gets on the highway going the wrong way and kills a bunch of people? "What brand of car was it? How big was his car?".
And the NRA does not speak for anyone but the NRA... their response was predictable, albeit stupid.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Dec 26, 2012 - 03:45pm PT
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Top 10 myths about mass shootings
Even before the death toll in last Friday’s school massacre in Newtown, Conn., was determined, politicians, pundits, and professors of varied disciplines were all over the news, pushing their proposals for change. Some talked about the role of guns, others about mental-health services, and still more about the need for better security in schools and other public places. Whatever their agenda and the passion behind it, those advocates made certain explicit or implied assumptions about patterns in mass murder and the profile of the assailants. Unfortunately, those assumptions do not always align with the facts.
Myth: Mass shootings are on the rise.
Reality: Over the past three decades, there has been an average of 20 mass shootings a year in the United States, each with at least four victims killed by gunfire. Occasionally, and mostly by sheer coincidence, several episodes have been clustered closely in time. Over all, however, there has not been an upward trajectory. To the contrary, the real growth has been in the style and pervasiveness of news-media coverage, thanks in large part to technological advances in reporting.
Myth: Mass murderers snap and kill indiscriminately.
Reality: Mass murderers typically plan their assaults for days, weeks, or months. They are deliberate in preparing their missions and determined to follow through, no matter what impediments are placed in their path.
Myth: Enhanced background checks will keep dangerous weapons out of the hands of these madmen.
Reality: Most mass murderers do not have criminal records or a history of psychiatric hospitalization. They would not be disqualified from purchasing their weapons legally. Certainly, people cannot be denied their Second Amendment rights just because they look strange or act in an odd manner. Besides, mass killers could always find an alternative way of securing the needed weaponry, even if they had to steal from family members or friends.
Myth: Restoring the federal ban on assault weapons will prevent these horrible crimes.
Reality: The overwhelming majority of mass murderers use firearms that would not be restricted by an assault-weapons ban. In fact, semiautomatic handguns are far more prevalent in mass shootings. Of course, limiting the size of ammunition clips would at least force a gunman to pause to reload or switch weapons.
Myth: Greater attention and response to the telltale warning signs will allow us to identify would-be mass killers before they act.
Reality: While there are some common features in the profile of a mass murderer (depression, resentment, social isolation, tendency to blame others for their misfortunes, fascination with violence, and interest in weaponry), those characteristics are all fairly prevalent in the general population. Any attempt to predict would produce many false positives. Actually, the telltale warning signs come into clear focus only after the deadly deed.
Myth: Widening the availability of mental-health services and reducing the stigma associated with mental illness will allow unstable individuals to get the treatment they need.
Reality: With their tendency to externalize blame and see themselves as victims of mistreatment, mass murderers perceive the problem to be in others, not themselves. They would generally resist attempts to encourage them to seek help. And, besides, our constant references to mass murderers as “wackos” or “sickos” don’t do much to destigmatize the mentally ill.
Myth: Increasing security in schools and other places will deter mass murder.
Reality: Most security measures will serve only as a minor inconvenience for those who are dead set on mass murder. If anything, excessive security and a fortress-like environment serve as a constant reminder of danger and vulnerability.
Myth: Students need to be prepared for the worst by participating in lockdown drills.
Reality: Lockdown drills can be very traumatizing, especially for young children. Also, it is questionable whether they would recall those lessons amid the hysteria associated with an actual shooting. The faculty and staff need to be adequately trained, and the kids just advised to listen to instructions. Schools should take the same low-key approach to the unlikely event of a shooting as the airlines do to the unlikely event of a crash. Passengers aren’t drilled in evacuation procedures but can assume the crew is sufficiently trained.
Myth: Expanding “right to carry” provisions will deter mass killers or at least stop them in their tracks and reduce the body counts.
Reality: Mass killers are often described by surviving witnesses as being relaxed and calm during their rampages, owing to their level of planning. In contrast, the rest of us are taken by surprise and respond frantically. A sudden and wild shootout involving the assailant and citizens armed with concealed weapons would potentially catch countless innocent victims in the crossfire.
Myth: We just need to enforce existing gun laws as well as increase the threat of the death penalty.
Reality: Mass killers typically expect to die, usually by their own hand or else by first responders. Nothing in the way of prosecution or punishment would divert them from their missions. They are ready to leave their miserable existence, but want some payback first.
In the immediate aftermath of the Newtown school shootings, there seems to be great momentum to establish policies and procedures designed to make us all safer. Sensible gun laws, affordable mental-health care, and reasonable security measures are all worthwhile, and would enhance the well being of millions of Americans. They may do much to impact the level of violent crime that plagues our nation daily. We shouldn’t, however, expect such efforts to take a big bite out of crime in its most extreme form. Of course, a nibble or two from the prevalence of mass murder would be reason enough. And efforts to promote real change in our social policies would be a fitting legacy to the tragedy in Newtown.
http://boston.com/community/blogs/crime_punishment/2012/12/top_10_myths_about_mass_shooti.html
Note: A version of this blog post appeared in the Chronicle of Higher Education.
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lostinshanghai
Social climber
someplace
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Dec 26, 2012 - 04:43pm PT
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Hire Ninja females this should work
But for 30 round magazines being banned what about these babies. What is stopping these from being used.
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10b4me
Boulder climber
Somewhere on 395
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Dec 26, 2012 - 04:46pm PT
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Joe, do you suffer from OCD?
you need to remind us how much you "liked" Michael Reardon.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Dec 26, 2012 - 05:03pm PT
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Aren't most schools with on-site security/police, and secured entrances and inspections, high schools, many of them in inner cities, where the main safety problem is students bringing in weapons?
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Crimpergirl
Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
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Dec 26, 2012 - 05:06pm PT
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Norton, the section in your post doesnt indicate that crime in general has gone down where CCW laws are in effect. It only speaks of mass killings.
Ron, statistics are clear that violent crime has decreased since the early 90s EVERYWHERE. CCW or not, it's declined. Guns or not, it's declined. Can't pin that on CCW at all. Sorry.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Dec 26, 2012 - 05:26pm PT
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With six out of a thousand of Junhinged's posts being climbing related and the last 280 gun related,I think we hve a replacement for Rox and wolves in the OCD department.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Dec 26, 2012 - 05:31pm PT
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Wow, managed to beat the blizzard back from St. George, where I scored another 75rd AK drum at the pawnshop.
Looks like everybody is still "vocalizing" and nobody listening.
I'm glad that Anders lives north of the border where some of the sheep are scared and the rest walk on 2 legs.
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happiegrrrl
Trad climber
www.climbaddictdesigns.com
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Dec 26, 2012 - 05:37pm PT
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...statistics are clear that violent crime has decreased since the early 90s EVERYWHERE.
Crimpie- I recall it being in the news several years ago that the NYC police had been manipulating police reports to create stats which showed a favorable picture. A quick search brought this as top link: http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/29/nyregion/new-york-police-department-manipulates-crime-reports-study-finds.html?_r=0
From your vantage point, do you feel this could be/have been a more widespread phenomenon(meaning a general practice in other precincts? Or do you feel it would be too difficult to manipulate reports which included firearms?
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steveA
Trad climber
bedford,massachusetts
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Dec 26, 2012 - 05:41pm PT
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I was in a local gym today working out next to a county Sheriff.
We got on this subject and he mentioned that ALL the gun stores, he knew of in the area had sold out of just about any firearm except the 22 caliber variety.
Seems to be a run on guns. Hum?
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Dec 26, 2012 - 05:42pm PT
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Crimpie- I recall it being in the news several years ago that the NYC police had been manipulating police reports to create stats which showed a favorable picture.
In a similar vein, LA City fire just got caught manipulating response time data a few months ago.
It probably happens a lot more often with govt stats of all sorts than anyone would suspect.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Dec 26, 2012 - 05:48pm PT
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Steve I think he meant box feed semi autos.
Plenty of riot guns and levers and bolts not moving.
But the .22s are selling and there is very little .22 ammo to be found anywhere (except my basement).
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Dec 26, 2012 - 05:48pm PT
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It probably happens a lot more often with govt stats of all sorts than anyone would suspect.
You mean like with the unemployment #'s??
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Crimpergirl
Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
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Dec 26, 2012 - 05:53pm PT
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Crimpie, are there not states or cities, counties etc that saw a noticeable reduction in crime just after enacting CCW laws.?
Ron: A difficulty in research is determining what came first - the law or the crime rate. How long a lag will it take for a law to work? That is the real problem. For any study that says CCW mattered, there is a study that shows that crime was going down before CCW was implemented. It's not easy to study. And even if you showed that CCW mattered, how to explain all the other places that did not implement that law and their crime fell too?
Crime has plummeted since the early 90s (with the exception of the last year when it went up again). That is all over. That is a fact.
And how Ron, could one explain the increase in crime the last year - I don't think CCW laws have been going away have they?
Happie - one could manipulate data for sure and it has happened. This is one of the reasons that we have multiple sources of data. One, the NCVS, is not subject to manipulation by police since the data do not come from police. The NCVS and FBI data both show that crime has plummeted except for the last year.
When police manipulate the numbers, they tend to get caught. There are people out there who make a living working with these data. Some funny movement in the data will get very close examination. And this has resulted in places getting busted doing just that. While it can happen, and it has happened, it would have to be widespread - really widespread - to change things a lot.
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lostinshanghai
Social climber
someplace
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Dec 26, 2012 - 05:55pm PT
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Let's see 30 round magazines banned but can use these to create two 20's so you get 40 rounds to shoot.
Those that still have 30 round clips can shoot 60.
Keeps going and going with no end in sight.
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Crimpergirl
Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
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Dec 26, 2012 - 05:56pm PT
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http://www.uwplatt.edu/~wiegmake/Intro_Files/CJ%20-%20paper%20example.pdf
federal level study^^^^^^^^^^
Ron - the link takes me to a 7 page student's research paper. That does not count as a study.
edit: their references:
Cleary, J. & Shapiro, E. (1999). The Effects of “Shall-Issue” Concealed-Carry Licensing Laws: A Literature Review. Information Brief - Minnesota House of Representatives Research Department. Retrieved from http://www.house.leg.state.mn.us/hrd/pubs/concarry.pdf.
Donohue, J., & Ayres, I. (2003). Shooting Down the More Guns, Less Crime Hypothesis. UC Berkeley: Center for the Study of Law and Society Jurisprudence and Social Policy Program. Retrieved from http://www.escholarship.org/uc/item/6v35j6tp.
Kovandzic, T., Marvell, T., & Vieraitis, L. (2005). The Impact of "Shall-Issue" Concealed Handgun Laws on Violent Crime Rates: Evidence From Panel Data for Large Urban Cities. Homicide Studies, 9(4), 292-323. doi:10.1177/1088767905279972. Retrieved from http://hsx.sagepub.com/cgi/reprint/9/4/292.
National Rifle Association of America, Institute for Legislative Action. (2009). [Map illustration of Right to Carry Laws in the United States]. Right to Carry Laws. Retrieved from http://www.nraila.org/images/rtcmaplg.jpg.
Rosengart, M., Cummings, P., Nathens, A., Heagerty, P., Maier, R., and
Rivara, F. (2005). An evaluation of state firearm regulations and homicide and suicide death rates. Injury Prevention 2005;11:77–83. doi: 10.1136/ip.2004.007062. Retrieved from
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1730198/pdf/v011p00077.pdf/?tool=pmcentrez
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