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crunch
Social climber
CO
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Aug 31, 2012 - 04:44pm PT
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Nice post Ken M (as usual). Lance A is innocent until shown otherwise. And it hasn't been shown otherwise.
It's not quite so clear. He's said he's not fighting the allegations.
I'd construe this as the equivalent of pleading no contest. He accepts that the verdict, officially, will be guilty. He accepts that he will be stripped, officially, of his medals. He can state, honestly, that he was not "found" guilty. He can say he won the TDF seven times. Since the governing body will see this as the functional equivalent of a guilty plea, they can close their case. So, no more unpleasant allegations and stories will be surfacing, officially.
This, in the short term, suits everyone. In the longer term this is a bad ending to this saga. Bad because there is no resolution; see the ups and downs of this thread for instance. It's no ending at all.
One the one hand, the saga looks on the surface like the witch-hunt that Armstrong's supporters claim it to be. Maybe he never doped but was one of the greatest athletes of all time. The accusations are all trumped up out of jealously. Maybe he is, truly, tired of fighting.
On the other, perhaps he doped his entire career. Bit by bit, rumors have surfaced and, one by one, those who supported and enabled his doping have been persuaded to tell their tales. And now, with a mountain of evidence, leaving him no honorable way out, he's crying uncle.
This murky limbo of non-verdict is Armstrong's choice. The regular sporting and media world that fixates on winners and losers, stars, heroes. Armstrong took full advantage of this media game while he was a winner, a star.
Now he's refusing to play.
Even If he's innocent, he's really letting his fans down by crying uncle, refusing an honest accounting of what happened. Don't be so hard on the Chief; he's onto something here that goes deeper than one guy riding a bicycle.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Aug 31, 2012 - 05:44pm PT
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As an ex-Navy guy I have no compunction stating:
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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He is going down. When it all comes out as it will in the next couple of weeks, it will be interesting to see how you all react then.
What you mean, is you wonder how we will all respond when confronted with actual EVIDENCE?
Gosh, isn't that what we SHOULD respond to?
What are YOU reacting to, since you admit that the evidence is NOT out?
Rumor, accusation, suspicion.
I notice that you did not respond to my comment that if a Chief wants to "get" a sailor, they will. You are obviously proud of that system, and that way of justice.
This morning, I heard an interesting segment on NPR about George Takai
http://www.npr.org/2012/09/01/160264485/george-takei-takes-story-of-internment-to-the-stage
But his latest project aims to bring a different kind of story to the stage, one with personal and historical resonance. The actor was born in Los Angeles to a Japanese-American family just a few years before Japan's bombing of Pearl Harbor. After that 1941 attack, he and his family were among the tens of thousands of U.S. citizens of Japanese descent who were forced to move to internment camps.
"We were first taken from our home ... in Los Angeles to a horse stable at a race track, San Anita Race Track, near Los Angeles. And we were there for a few months while the camps were being built. And from there we were taken to the swamps of southeastern Arkansas. So, all the Japanese-Americans that were incarcerated followed that pattern: first, what's called an 'assembly center,' a very innocuous-sounding name, and from there to a 'relocation center,' another innocuous word."
"But there [was] another group of people who I admire equally. They're the ones that said, 'Yes, I'm an American and I will fight for this country, but I won't go as an internee from behind these barbed wire fences, leaving my family in imprisonment. I will go only on the condition that I go as an American; that I can report to my hometown draft board with my family in our home, and then I will serve.' And for that courageous and principled stand, they were tried and found guilty of draft evasion and put into federal penitentiaries.
"It was the sheet of paper that was to ascertain the loyalty of people that the government had imprisoned on the suspicion — merely the suspicion, not the guilt — of being potential spies, fifth columnists, traitors. Everyone over the age of 17 had to respond to it whether you were male or female, citizen or noncitizen. ... Question 27 asked 'Will you bear arms to defend the United States of America?' — this being asked of an 87-year-old immigrant lady as well as a 17-year-old young man. Even more insidious was the next question, Question 28. It asked, and I'm paraphrasing, but essentially it said, 'Will you swear your loyalty to the United States of America and foreswear your loyalty to the emperor of Japan?' The government assumed that if you're born with this face — even if you're an American, never been to Japan — that we are born with an organic, inborn loyalty to the emperor. It was offensive and the amazing thing was that so many young people answered yes to those two offensive questions and went and served."
What struck me about that, was that SUSPICION ONLY being the basis of punishment.
Chief, I don't know if your "name" coyly refers to an American Indian heritage, but if it does, why should you have been allowed to serve with the US Military? Don't you owe allegiance to another nation, the Indian Nations? Maybe that is why you were never a commissioned officer, you did't have the loyalty to the country?
Now that was somewhat tongue-in-cheek, as I don't doubt your loyalty for a second, and I apologize if offense was given. But you can see where this sort of thing leads.
We go your route, we can conveniently just forget all that pesky evidence and proof business, and just deal with people on the basis of appearance, or their last name, or rumors.
That's not the country you fought for.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Ken:
So you are onboard with the belief that Hamilton, Landis, Andreu, and the other "witnesses" are all bought out, lying, and just plain talking shet about LA. That not one of em is telling the truth. That the only individual in the entire lot that is on the up and up is LA. That he never doped nor did he participate in the process of doing so for and with the entire Motorola/US Postal/Discovery/Radio Shack squads? That this entire deal has and always was a scheme to dethrone LA and greatest? That none of the "accusations" ever happened?
Then it is safe to assume that you also believe that OJ was innocent all along as well. He was found innocent of his actions and thus he too never did any of what he was accused of.... Right?
I don't know about those people, I haven't see their sworn testimony. What did you think when you read it?
I think OJ did it. However, I actually heard the actual evidence, and after I did, I made a judgement.
By the way, I think the jury came to the correct verdict, based upon what was presented to them.
So you STILL won't respond to the allegation that Chief's will "get" a sailor if they want them gotten? Are you as guilty as LA, since you are choosing not to respond to an accusation? How many innocent sailors careers did you destroy, because you felt like it?
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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Landis toured the country soliciting donations from his fan base for his legal defense...Floyd swore he was innocent ...Then he gets popped , exposing himself as a liar and cheat...Same thing happened with Hamilton more or less and eventually Hamilton is exposed for doping...An aquaintance that rode in the recent olympics shared a pitiful story about Tyler during his last competetions on US ground where Tyler was trying to convince other riders that he hadn't used PED's...Floyd and Tyler got caught and i can see how they would want Lance to be exposed but i think these 2 emotionally unstable athletes lack credibility...? I would speculate that Lance doped just like the rest of the peloton but until any evidence is brought forward it is just speculation...And i agree with Big Mig's opinions that USADA does not have the authority to ban UCI athletes...
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zBrown
Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
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Just in: OJ and Paul Ryan plotting to lynch Lance Armstrong, but only to within an inch of his life since Paul is pro-life and OJ quite obviously isn't.
May seen fishy to you, it ain't nothin' to me
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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If any Sailor chooses to not change their ways and play by the rules & regs, continues to lie, cheat and/or steal, he/she then will be "Gotten" rid of by the Chief. That is the Chiefs duty which he/she accepted the day they took the Chiefs Creed and put on the Hat. But only after the Chief does what is expected of them to motivate/discipline (look up the latin definition btw) that particular Sailor.
I don't disagree with this and the fact a great deal of what goes on in the military is mindless bullshit isn't necessarily the chiefs / master sargents fault per se. The job just happens to attract personality types who revel in it's use as a behavioral filter to help identify and assess the malcontents. The problem is, if you have an IQ over 100, then the stifling mindlessness of what passes [unexamined] as 'tradition' is overwhelmingly boorish and adolescent.
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Curt
Boulder climber
Gilbert, AZ
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So you are onboard with the belief that Hamilton, Landis, Andreu, and the other "witnesses" are all bought out, lying, and just plain talking shet about LA. That not one of em is telling the truth. That the only individual in the entire lot that is on the up and up is LA. That he never doped nor did he participate in the process of doing so for and with the entire Motorola/US Postal/Discovery/Radio Shack squads? That this entire deal has and always was a scheme to dethrone LA and greatest? That none of the "accusations" ever happened?
As others have correctly pointed out, the actual blood test results should take precedence over any sort of verbal testimony. Why? Because it constitutes actual physical evidence--and eye witness testimony is notoriously inaccurate, for various reasons. As someone else also pointed out, for a system to be fair that system must also work both ways--and the USADA kangaroo court does not do that. Nobody believes that positive blood tests for doping could be challenged by a number of teammates testifying that he didn't dope--either the blood tests are definitive, or they are not.
With respect to the USADA claims of actual blood test evidence, all I have read is that they asserted that some of LA's tests are "consistent with doping," whatever that is supposed to mean. As far as I know, they have not specified what samples are being referred to, i.e. during LA's TDF victory years or much later--and that specific language troubles me. For example, a person can have symptoms "consistent" with having a heart attack and not be having a heart attack.
Then it is safe to assume that you also believe that OJ was innocent all along as well. He was found innocent of his actions and thus he too never did any of what he was accused of.... Right?
At least you leave no doubt about where you're coming from. First you compare Lance Armstrong to the biggest thief and embezzler in US history (the convicted felon Bernie Madoff) and now you compare him to a cold blooded murderer. You can get off your high horse concerning truth, integrity and honesty now. Everyone can pretty clearly see that those things aren't really what you're interested in.
Curt
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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It is apparent that neither you Ken nor healyje, personally experience nor partook in these types of strict operations.
I inadvertently did something 'wrong' my first few days on the Providence as a result of being clueless about boats, having attended an aviation boot camp at NAS Memphis. As a result I spent the entirety of '72 on the line six-on/six-off in a very active 5"/38 gun mount (where my hearing went) and usually spent one of my off sixes doing helo ops or flying photo recons looking for SAM sites. So yeah, I do actually know what I'm talking about. I spent '73 on the Blue Ridge assembling the daily intelligence brief presentations for the floating heads of the seventh fleet / inter-services taskforce as a very informally 'adopted' personal assistant to the commander who was the floating head of naval intelligence for the fleet.
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Trad climber
Will know soon
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F....the (drug) police. Whoa, did I say that? lynnie
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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OJ was found to be innocent... remember.
The judicial/legal system found Simpson not guilty, after a criminal trial. That system very rarely finds someone to be innocent, although a ruling of not guilty/acquittal, or a withdrawal of charges, may amount to that.
Simpson was found to be liable in a civil trial for damages for wrongful death, for the same events, and essentially bankrupted.
Simpson was found guilty in the court of public opinion.
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Curt
Boulder climber
Gilbert, AZ
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OJ was found to be innocent... remember.
Yes, but OJ actually had a fair trial in an impartial court. I didn't agree with the outcome, but I was satisfied with the process. In contrast, the Justice Department dropped their case against Lance Armstrong because there was insufficient evidence to proceed--the same reason French authorities dropped their earlier doping investigations of LA.
It is fairly clear to a number of people (me among them) that the so called "arbitration process" employed by the USADA is not inherently fair--and that those fighting USADA allegations have very little chance of prevailing because the standard of proof required for finding guilt is so low.
I don't know what the precise USADA arbitration standard for a finding of guilt is, but it is clearly less than the criminal standard of "beyond a reasonable doubt" and appears to be significantly less than even the normal civil standard of "preponderance of the evidence," particularly if the validity of actual blood test results can effectively be negated by mere witness testimony.
Curt
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zBrown
Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
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OJ was found to be innocent... remember.
Sheeit, maybe Paul Ryan (if he's not too tired from those sub 3-hour marathons) and Lance Armstrong should lynch OJ. Lets put some justice into the justice system.
Perhaps a self-lynching?
Mary the Elephant, Lynched in Erwin, Tennessee, 13 September, 1916
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Curt
Boulder climber
Gilbert, AZ
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If anyone really reads why the USJD investigation was dropped, they will find out that all potentially incriminating incidents occurred on foreign non-US soil. Thus their jurisdiction was totally invalid and any charges brought on would not fly in any US Court.
That is completely false.
http://amlawdaily.typepad.com/amlawdaily/2012/02/doj-armstrong.html
Then again, you seem to like stuff that is just made up.
Curt
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zBrown
Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
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from the cite above
Birotte did not offer a reason for closing the probe
Did anybody else offer up reasons?
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Curt
Boulder climber
Gilbert, AZ
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CURT: Ah, via your ref, please show where it clearly states "WHY" the USDJ/FDA dropped their investigation.
You can't. They never officially stated why it was dropped.
Correct. So you can't simply make some reason up--in spite of how much "common sense" you might think it makes.
Curt
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zBrown
Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
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Again, all these allegations occurred outside the US.
Did someone from the U.S. fly over and take notes?
If all of 'em occurred outside, why were they being investigated inside the U.S.?
Where is the list of allegers? Did they allege all the actions occurred outside the U.S.?
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Kalimon
Trad climber
Ridgway, CO
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The Chief don't ride, Charlie don't surf.
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