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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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No that is NOT the OP's contention.
That is your mistaken counter contention.
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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Ron, aside from politics you and i agree quite a bit.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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seeing as there are really only about 10 people posting on any given thread on the Taco it is a pretty small sample of the user group.
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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I'm just glad i can climb anything.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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5.8 for me...
Put up a bunch of 10s and a few that might be 11? but the criteria is any time, anywhere...
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 4, 2012 - 03:24pm PT
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The OP's premise is that hard climbers haven't gotten any harder because doing 5.11 70's style is still hard and the exact same % of the climbing population is forever plateaued there. The conversation moved on from there. It's not a surprise some of you haven't been able to keep up, given the content of your posts.
Nice try - but you've whiffed again. You keep projecting your own ideas onto what I have said, including positing me as some defender of old school trad doctrine despite saying in plain English that I mostly sport climb these days.
Trad climbing has steadily progressed but as most people know, the all-around trad expert seems to be as rare now as he was back in the stone age (1970s). This is not a knock on sport climbing. In fact it's not a comment on sport climbing at all, which is a totally different animal.
Understand that as an author or how-to books, I can't come off half-cocked and suggest strategies that will get people hurt. And you have nearly preached the diabolical notion that sport climbers are uniquely suited to crush the trad venue if they could only be bothered to try. This might be true providing there was a top rope present. As is, suggesting that physically gifted sport climbers are uniquely suited for sometimes grave psychological challenges is not only way to much to expect from those schooled on a medium where the risk has been virtually eliminated, but it is advice that will get people hurt in no time.
You sound like an avid fan of sport climbing, like me. But where we differ is that I would never tell "Young Charles" (16, and cruises 5.14) at my gym that he should jump right up on Cream with a cam or two because it's only 5.11a after all. You might as well just run the poor kid over with your hybrid.
JL
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Ya but some of the strong kids have turned into animals outdoors. I gave a trad lesson to a gym rat a few years ago . kid was leading 11 sport but struggleing on trad. 15 pieces and a few hangs on a 75ft 5.7 was the cumulation of our lesson. a month or so later the kid was leading spicy trad 10's and has led 12 trad.. Like the big man said.. It all starts with good genetics..... some folks got it, some can learn it and the rest of us can have fun trying.
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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...the all-around trad expert seems to be as rare now as he was back in the stone age (1970s).
It all sounds so vastly different restated in these words.
...sport climbers are uniquely suited to crush the trad venue if they could only be bothered to try. This might be true providing there was a top rope present.
Good luck selling that today. Maybe Ron and Philo will buy a million copies each.
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raymond phule
climber
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I don't really understand why trad climbing seems to be equal to climbing r and x rated routes in this thread.
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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By any chance does the P stand for "punter"?
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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I don't really understand why trad climbing seems to be equal to climbing r and x rated routes in this thread.
It's not but that does not stop the old guys from thinking they have to have a pissing contest ;)
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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"Old Guys"! Are you talking to me?
For me it is mostly an effort to counter JLP's contention that 5.11 trad climbing is insignificant because of the big numbers "hang & take" climbers are putting down.
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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^^^ Well said Ron.
Another important thing is less how hard a climb is and more how well it is climbed.
The Dunn-Westbay on the Diamond and the Hallucinogen in the Black are both now free routes.
I don't see sport climbing hard cores lining up to do those in the best style possible.
Climbing 8000 meter peaks without oxygen was a positive move forward to the world of ascent.
Pre-hung sport draws was not.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Just because you are a elder does not mean you have to come off like a cranky old fart...
seems like some of the kids are doing really good things out there and most of them do not get their pantys in a bunch over bolts..
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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It is NOT about bolts. I have put in a total of 4 and removed 5 but I have accepted there part in the wider world of climbing.
And it's not about being cranky old farts. Besides with all my surgical steel I am a "Clanky" old Phart.
It is about perspective. It's about what matters.
Chances are that a true 5.11+ all a rounder would fair better keeping up with the bigger number sportsters than those who had focused so intently on big number bolt routes would have keeping up with the former. Being able to eventually work up a 5.14 in the gym or sport cave, while admittedly impressive, in no way equates to being a good climber.
Before he died John Rosholt had become a 5.13 onsight trad climber. He was exceptional on all 5.11 terrain. He was what JL meant and he was a rarity. The numbers mean less than the larger perspective of climbing difficulty and purity of ascent.
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steve shea
climber
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Purity of ascent. In a sport where there are no rules, no referees etc. there are some values/ethics that, although self imposed, are more important than any number or summit. I think those of us that value the ethic gain far more than any number would imply. As I stated earlier I do not disrespect sport climbing, I just like what trad climbing offers in way that cannot be measured by numbers.
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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Steve that was well said and resonant.
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Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Joshua Tree
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Chances are that a true 5.11+ all a rounder would fair better keeping up with the bigger number sportsters than those who had focused so intently on big number bolt routes would have keeping up with the former
Ah, now we're up to 5.11+ all-arounder. In any case, laughably delusional.
The sad part is, I think you actually believe your own bullsh#t.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Things have even changed acoustically - in Eldo the mid-70's on a busy day you heard "falling" yelled periodically throughout the day. Last time I was there it was an incessant din of "take!".
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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OK so I went to a fund raiser several years ago that had a climbing competition for shwag. Thing is the event was held at The Spot in Boulder and featured a biggest throw dyno contest up a steeply over hanging wall. Well along comes jonny Copp (RIP) who, in the spirit of the event, decides to give it ago. Clearly Jonny was more ripped than any of other burlymen contenders that night but his efforts were less than stellar, Along comes Mike Aldridge who at that time, and perhaps still, held the world record Dyno throw. Well i gotta tell you Mike's throw was awesome. It was way beyond my comprehension. Now Mike is a damn fine climber, a hard boulderer and certainly the man can fly. He blew Jonny away at that comp. But you would be foolish to put those two men on the same page of significance
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