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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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Jul 24, 2012 - 03:54pm PT
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I'm pretty sure nobody suggested that, but you go on with your generalizations....
It amuses me.
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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Jul 24, 2012 - 03:58pm PT
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Crimpergirl
Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
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Jul 24, 2012 - 04:04pm PT
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Ron-
Genuine question raised by your Willy Wonka poster. The shooter in this massacre was no criminal. Had only a speeding ticket in his past and bought his guns and ammo legally. Not a criminal.
I mean, it seems clear that having guns in our community simply means we will have gun violence in our community to some degree.
So what to do in response to this shooting? Nothing? Or if you think something should be done in response to this, what should that something be?
Curious about your thoughts.
edit: And sorry if I missed your response to the questions earlier. Been buried in work. Hope you'd repost them if you already shared.
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Don Paul
Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
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Jul 24, 2012 - 04:06pm PT
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Alona - it is not my personal definition of human rights, it is the legal definition of the term as understood by lawyers. The rights considered universal are enshrined in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, the ICCPR, the IESCR, and various other treaties, as well as some rights established by customary international law, which is analogous to the common law in the US. The document you quote may have had some impact on English law with respect to arms, but is not a basis of human rights law, as the magna carta. Also the fact that the Brits don't get too excited about guns makes me question what historical influence that law had in Britain.
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Binks
climber
Uranus
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Jul 24, 2012 - 04:16pm PT
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Genuine question raised by your Willy Wonka poster. The shooter in this massacre was no criminal. Had only a speeding ticket in his past and bought his guns and ammo legally. Not a criminal.
I mean, it seems clear that having guns in our community simply means we will have gun violence in our community to some degree.
Yup that's it in a nutshell. This stuff should be illegal, much harder to obtain, at the very least.
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FGD135
Social climber
Colorado
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Jul 24, 2012 - 04:26pm PT
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So, um, you folks that want to ban all firearms and ammunition in the US, umm, have you thought exactly how you would accomplish this? Like a voluntary turn-in to the police, or the national guard, or ?
Or, what, a mandatory surrender of firearms and ammunition on threat of death or imprisonment for those of us who would never ever comply? It would certainly be necessary to call up all police, the national guard, the reserves, even the regular army perhaps, to enforce some kind of draconian tactics like--registration/confiscation. Assuming even that those organizations would assist in the first place.That would criminalize most of the US population.
Personally, I think that would end up being even more a violation of civil rights than anything that has ever happened--and would take heavy handed tactics that would probably result in many more deaths of innocents than any theatre massacre...and who among you would stand up for that? Would you be in favor of house-to-house searches of your friends and neighbors, buses full of "suspects" being carted off to ?? "camps"? Are you gonna be turning in your friends and neighbors and co-workers?
And as long as you were taking away 2nd amendment rights, why not suspend habeas corpus, muzzle the press, and appoint someone in charge, to avoid having to actually vote and risk losing an election that would overturn such a bad decision as ---confiscation or registration.
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Binks
climber
Uranus
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Jul 24, 2012 - 04:33pm PT
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I disagree completely that if the weapons were illegal he could have just as easily obtained them. Not true.
Does your argument extend to drugs? abortion? anything regulated whatsoever?
We can just obtain it anyway, so why not make EVERYTHING legal?
And of course, your argument doesn't apply... to kids. Why can't they just carry guns to school? I mean, there might be one kid with a gun so they should all carry them, and the teachers too.
What an insane society and world view..
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Don Paul
Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
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Jul 24, 2012 - 04:38pm PT
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We need to get the ATF involved and send in Ron wearing a wire.
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jstan
climber
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Jul 24, 2012 - 04:38pm PT
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One of the very reasons more werent KILLED was his poor calibur choices.That MAY have very well been a factor in the plus column believe it or not. He could have used several other way more damaging rounds that are commonly sold.
Clearly our citizenry needs more guidance from the experts among us, if we are effectively to defend ourselves. Everyone in the US needs to become a weapons expert.
This thread has finally demonstrated something.
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Crimpergirl
Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
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Jul 24, 2012 - 04:40pm PT
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Crimper, the point is that his PLANNED ACT was CRIMINAL. So there fore could have just as easily aquired ILLEGAL black market guns. Or he could have used a lesser capacity gun with more magazines on him and done the exact same- he could have doen that with someones deer hunting 30-06. He could have done that with just semi auto pistols and magazines for those, or he could have done that with a hundred different poisons/explosives etc etc. the POINT is he WAS going to do that- and NO LAWS current nor future would have prevented it. One of the very reasons more werent KILLED was his poor calibur choices.That MAY have very well been a factor in the plus column believe it or not. He could have used several other way more damaging rounds that are commonly sold.
NO LAWS EVER PREVENTED:
the Mansons, Bundy, Dahmer, Columbine, IHOP, Chicago, hundreds of thousands of gang members now here, crazy people.
Ron - Is it wrong for me to assume based on your response that it was just going to happen so nothing (laws or otherwise) should be changed based on this event? I'm not preaching a right or wrong answer. Just curious as to whether you think something should be changed as a result of this event. I ask you because you are willing to engage in dialogue (as is Bluey - but he's not here). I appreciate that you are willing to do so.
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Binks
climber
Uranus
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Jul 24, 2012 - 04:40pm PT
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So, um, you folks that want to ban all drugs in the US, umm, have you thought exactly how you would accomplish this? Like a voluntary turn-in to the police, or the national guard, or ?
Or, what, a mandatory surrender of drugs on threat of death or imprisonment for those of us who would never ever comply? It would certainly be necessary to call up all police, the national guard, the reserves, even the regular army perhaps, to enforce some kind of draconian tactics like--registration/confiscation. Assuming even that those organizations would assist in the first place.That would criminalize most of the US population.
Personally, I think that would end up being even more a violation of civil rights than anything that has ever happened--and would take heavy handed tactics that would probably result in many more deaths of innocents than any theatre massacre...and who among you would stand up for that? Would you be in favor of house-to-house searches of your friends and neighbors, buses full of "suspects" being carted off to ?? "camps"? Are you gonna be turning in your friends and neighbors and co-workers?
And as long as you were taking away 2nd amendment rights, why not suspend habeas corpus, muzzle the press, and appoint someone in charge, to avoid having to actually vote and risk losing an election that would overturn such a bad decision as ---confiscation or registration.
seems like we aleady do this for .... weed. Hardly a death dealing substance.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Jul 24, 2012 - 05:00pm PT
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Why can't they just carry guns to school? I mean, there might be one kid with a gun so they should all carry them, and the teachers too.
correct, if the students and teachers were armed, they could take out a trouble maker
For example, regarding Colleges:
25 two- and four-year schools across the country now allow the carrying of firearms on their premises (i.e., campus grounds, classrooms, dormitories, etc.). These schools can be found in Colorado, Utah, Virginia and Michigan.
http://www.armedcampuses.org/
and then why not high schools?
We all remember the Columbine massacre, if teachers and students were armed, they could have killed those kids
What about grade schools, kindergarten through 8th grade?
We could put those kids through extensive firearm training too
The solution is MORE guns in trained hands, OBVIOUSLY
and "laws" don't do any good, criminals just ignore laws
therefore we might as well repeal all the gun laws for all the supposed "good" they do
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Crimpergirl
Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
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Jul 24, 2012 - 05:11pm PT
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Thanks much for your thoughts Ron! I really appreciate them.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Jul 24, 2012 - 05:13pm PT
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edit" as to Nortons comments, we had enough COMMON SENSE gun laws by the early 1900s to function perfectly well, had it NOT been for lawyers and politicians Do you not agree?
as my thoughts got bumped, I will post them again below
and Ron, what do you think of my comments?
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Jul 24, 2012 - 05:14pm PT
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Why can't they just carry guns to school? I mean, there might be one kid with a gun so they should all carry them, and the teachers too.
correct, if the students and teachers were armed, they could take out a trouble maker
For example, regarding Colleges:
25 two- and four-year schools across the country now allow the carrying of firearms on their premises (i.e., campus grounds, classrooms, dormitories, etc.). These schools can be found in Colorado, Utah, Virginia and Michigan. http://www.armedcampuses.org/
and then why not high schools?
We all remember the Columbine massacre, if teachers and students were armed, they could have killed those kids
What about grade schools, kindergarten through 8th grade?
We could put those kids through extensive firearm training too
The solution is MORE guns in trained hands, OBVIOUSLY
and "laws" don't do any good, criminals just ignore laws
therefore we might as well repeal all the gun laws for all the supposed "good" they do
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ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Trad climber
San Francisco, Ca
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Jul 24, 2012 - 05:25pm PT
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Society has accepted that every other year or so there will be a mass killing by a gunman. Same as society has accepted there will be a certain amount of deaths caused by alcohol, texting drivers, or other negligent/criminal behavior. We could prevent these deaths if we really wanted but have chosen not to do so.
I doubt more guns/texting/negligence would lead to less death. I conclude that the population for better or worse can just live with a certain number of innocent victims in exchange for the ability to participate in certain activities or to have certain perceived “freedoms."
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Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
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Jul 24, 2012 - 05:27pm PT
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Jul 24, 2012 - 05:30pm PT
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reedom isnt free. Never has been.
well said
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Don Paul
Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
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Jul 24, 2012 - 05:33pm PT
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You've got a point there, ontheedge. A few dozen deaths a year from psycho killers is not a lot, regardless of the impact on the press. My biggest fears are cancer and other diseases, or dying in a traffic accident. Those are the real risks to my life. However, someone has posted statistics showing tens of thousands of gun accidents every year. That sounds like a very significant problem.
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FGD135
Social climber
Colorado
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Jul 24, 2012 - 05:42pm PT
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"seems like we aleady do this for .... weed. Hardly a death dealing substance. "
Yep, and gun control would be about as (in)effective as the war on drugs.
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