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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Apr 14, 2012 - 02:29pm PT
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Are we supposed to ultrasound and x-ray them after every use?
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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Apr 14, 2012 - 02:30pm PT
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only if yer' blind
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Nate Ricklin
climber
San Diego
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Apr 14, 2012 - 06:54pm PT
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When I buy new crampons they won't be black diamond. Whatever.
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Ljohnson
Social climber
The land of ice, snow and rocks
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Apr 14, 2012 - 09:03pm PT
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A lot of people on this thread are asking for the same thing: Is there a serious design flaw in these crampons?
BD's response was lackluster, at best, in answering this question for us.
What really bugs me though is I have never even heard of crampons breaking in this fashion before. Tips break, toe bails etc.. but this is a whole different enchilada.
Crampons should be considered worn out after five years- are you kidding me? What about the 30 year old Footfangs I still have? My 20 year old Salwea's? I would take those over new BD crampons any day. You can see the difference in craftsmanship just by picking them up.
Have been less and less impressed with BD over the years, but this is the final straw. I will encourage others to buy other brands of climbing gear as well. There are plenty of other companies with much better track records out there.
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ms55401
Trad climber
minneapolis, mn
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Apr 14, 2012 - 10:38pm PT
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I was initially on the fence, but BD's response (or non-response) forced me off the fence.
I have two pairs of BD crampons: Sabretooth and Cyborg. Except for the front bale on the Cyborg coming out of the box backwards (WTF?), I've had no quality issues with either pair.
That said, I will be buying another pair of crampons this year for dedicated waterfall/mixed climbing (monopoint). I will not be buying BD, given their tardy and ultimately unimpressive response.
It'll either be Grivel or Petzl.
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Srbphoto
climber
Kennewick wa
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Apr 14, 2012 - 10:41pm PT
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we realized it would be best not to engage in such dialogue that is unconstrained by facts or respect.
After issuing this statement BD announced the end of all marketing, after all, they "realized it would be best not to engage in such dialogue that is unconstrained by facts or respect."
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Bob Culp
Trad climber
Boulder, CO
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Apr 15, 2012 - 10:58am PT
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I have decided I like this thread. Climbers are a opinionated lot and are not shy about expressing themselves.
A friend of mine read something I posted earlier and asked me why I am so "down" on BD. Since when does a little ribbing mean you are "down" on anyone? Geez.
I'm not much interested in the ways of companies. But think about it -
what other company for so many years has come out with so much innovative and cutting edge equipment? None that I know of.
In terms of the people - I don't really know any of them except Peter Metcalf who always treated me fairly and seems like a standup guy.
In terms of the QUESTION. I was glad to read a response from BD. I thought it was overdue, but that's their affair. I still don't know the answer though. Are a lot of Sabertooths breaking in the field? I don't care that much since I don't plan on buying them anyway. I always recommend Cyborgs and Stingers (which I am now using) and there seems to be no problem with them.
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jfs
Trad climber
Upper Leftish
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Apr 15, 2012 - 02:10pm PT
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This thread has about 10% worthwhile content.
The rest is ridiculous.
edit: which by supertopo standards is actually pretty damn good.
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Ain't no flatlander
climber
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Apr 15, 2012 - 04:12pm PT
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When CAMP was the first to offer stainless steel crampons, the folks at BD were quick to dismiss them as inferior to CroMo crampons. BD begin singing a different tune about stainless a few years later of course but all the marketing remains vague and is mostly about cosmetics. In contrast, CAMP was very clear about what steels they use and why http://www.camp-usa.com/product-highlights/forum/sandvik-nanoflex.asp.
CAMP apparently knew better than to sell a SS alpine crampon with horizontal front points, which is where all the trouble is. They now offer a 10-point SS version but it's specifically for ski mountaineering and is more like a stronger version of an aluminum crampon. Petzl and Grivel could easily have gone for SS if there were sufficient reason. But all the smart kids stuck with CroMo for alpine crampons.
The CroMo Sabretooths were fine and should have never been abandoned just to save 2 ounces per foot. BD made a bad materials choice purely for marketing--oooh, shiny--and is doing it's best to avoid admitting the mistake.
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JBC
Trad climber
Portland, OR
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Apr 16, 2012 - 12:12am PT
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Werner, there's nothing in the first post to indicate whether the poster had contacted Black Diamond, or not. I was simply suggesting (in the second post) that it would be a good idea to do so. Nothing more. Please don't read anything else into it.
FWIW I contacted BD (Peter Metcalf directly) via e-mail on 4/8.
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PeteC
climber
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Apr 16, 2012 - 12:32am PT
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I love the BD official response: "Gear Doesn't Last Forever "
Great response.
Why not title it "Everyone Dies Eventually".
Don't worry about crampon breakage. Death is inevitable anyways.
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JBC
Trad climber
Portland, OR
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Apr 16, 2012 - 12:33am PT
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As far as the post by BD goes, nice PR piece, but it does have some good information. I actually buy in to most of what it says. I agree 100% that climbing gear does not last forever, and we as climbers should be vigilent about checking it.
As for the ad hominem attack (as quoted above) BD "realized it would be best not to engage in such dialogue" one would think they would not want to engage at all. Instead they step directly in the poo by slamming some of the posters, in much the same way they claim those same folks are slamming them.
Should have just said nothing about that at all.
Furthermore, they never address the factual issues or questions raised by this thread. Perhaps it has got lost in all the "vitriol". Or perhaps the question(s) have not been stated clearly enough, but as far as i can see the lengthy BD post does not address the issue at hand here and on Dane's website in any substantial way>
So in the interest of clarity BD:
How many broken Sabertooth SS crampons are you aware of?
Is this less, or more than the Sabertooth Cromo crampons corrected for ay sales difference.
How about compared to other BD crampons?
Do you know what is causing the breakage, and if so, what is it?
What have you done to address the issue?
Should climbers be concerned about these crampons?
Why has this issue not been addressed to the climbing public previously?
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Apr 16, 2012 - 10:09am PT
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Anybody see the recall on bags of Dole salad this morning?
Their own testing found traces of salmonella so they started a recall even before any illnesses have come to light.
THAT is the way to protect the brand.
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RDB
Social climber
wa
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Apr 16, 2012 - 12:21pm PT
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I got an email from a Canadian last night who just had his bent and cracked Sabertooth crampons replaced. 10 last winter and 10 this winter that we know of. All are frame cracks, bends or breaks. How about we keep a public running total?
Rafael broken ss 2/15/11 (sales samples)
AT Thomas broken ss 2/15/11
Farzad broken ss 2/11/12
Linderbach broken ss 2/23/12
Erirw @ the Taco 4/8/12
from Cold Thistle emails
5 broken ss in Europe last winter, 3 in the UK
bent SS 2/17/12
cracked ss 2/17/12
ss front bent 2/20/12
(3) Nick from shop 2 cracked one bent 2/25/12
Canadian Sabers bent and cracked 4/15/12
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Bob Culp
Trad climber
Boulder, CO
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Apr 16, 2012 - 12:46pm PT
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Well there you have it.
Maybe BD has not seen that many and is in a state of denial, unwilling to accept "rumor" evidence. Maybe their idea of acceptable failure is higher than some of us. That gets into the area of individual judgement.
Any person capable of actually climbing knows that gear breaks. That is a no brainer and we do not need to be reminded of that fact. Putting a time limit on equipment is a pretty useless standard, except perhaps to remind people that stuff breaks which nobody needs reminding of.
I routinely retire ropes, recycle slings on a regular basis, and in general replace stuff that I feel like is nearing the end of its life expectancy.
Everyone does (or should) do that.
In my opinion, 20 broken crampons (and there are surely more not reported) is too many. It indicates an unreliable (dangerous) product. BD should take that model off the market and not reintroduce it until the problem is fixed.
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Bob Culp
Trad climber
Boulder, CO
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Apr 16, 2012 - 01:04pm PT
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Just a side note.
I was looking at my climbing school crampon pile. I have Charlet Grade 8s whose front points have been replaced many times, same with BD switchblades. I've got a number of Grivel G14s plus a few other Grivels. I have two pairs of Grivel 2F crampons that must be nearly thirty years old and are still reasonable sharp. (Wish they would bring that model back). I even have an ancient pair of Stubais that are still hanging in there.
I don't lead on any of them, just use them for practice top-roping, but the interesting thing is this. Crampons don't break a whole lot.
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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Apr 16, 2012 - 01:18pm PT
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Same here Bob.... A big 'ol pile of dull and ancient 'pons. They all still work.
I think we need to specify "frame breakage" when talking about this problem.
Point/bales/straps all break and we know that.
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YoungGun
climber
North
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Apr 16, 2012 - 01:23pm PT
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Their own charts show the SS Sabretooth is inferior to the original Sabretooth.
The question they fail to address is: If you have any doubts, why not just buy Grivel?
Not hating on BD. I trust Camalots with my life almost every time I go climbing. But the lack of transparency on this issue and the mix of science with marketing does not inspire confidence in SS crampons or BD's product development team.
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Bob Culp
Trad climber
Boulder, CO
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Apr 16, 2012 - 02:10pm PT
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No Stinkeye they are never going to respond on these forums. I don't even think they should you know? It's not really appropriate and I wouldn't if I were them. Actions speak louder than words anyway.
You know as well as I (or better) Fear how beginners abuse gear. They try to kick the toe points into hard ice to the point bails fly off. I even have had them shatter a couple pair of plastic boots. They try to kick the points into rock sometimes FGS! I routinely have them marching along on frozen trails in their 'pons because I'm afraid they will slip and go rolling down the hill. And it's frame breakage we are talking about here. I'm impressed though in general how much abuse any of this gear can take. Frame breakage? That's almost unheard of!
Youngun I rely on BD stuff all the time too. Cams, stoppers, biners - you name it. I just don't pay any attention to what marketing people have to say. The gear speaks for itself.
Sabertooths are talking.
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