Cerro Torre, A Mountain Consecrated - The Resurrection of th

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MarkWestman

Trad climber

Talkeetna, Alaska

Jan 21, 2012 - 07:49pm PT

Public service.

The portion of the public that shares your ethics, you mean. ;)

Kimbo

Boulder climber

seattle

Jan 21, 2012 - 07:51pm PT

Public service.

@jhealy:

isn't "public service" something that serves the interests of the "public"?

What if the "public" is against the "service"?

philo

Trad climber

Somewhere halfway over the rainbow

Jan 21, 2012 - 07:52pm PT

^^^ Much of the public is for the service. ^^^

Or would you advocate for monuments to failed hubris and environmental insensitivity?
When does liter left behind become hallowed artifacts?

Is national sovereignty a consideration when foreign climbers place bolts?

Kimbo

Boulder climber

seattle

Jan 21, 2012 - 07:56pm PT

Is national sovereignty a consideration when foreign climbers place bolts?

certainly should be, don't you think?

i can't imagine going into someone else's homeland and either placing bolts or removing bolts, especially without an attempt to understand the local's opinion on the matter.

healyje

Trad climber

Portland, Oregon

Jan 21, 2012 - 07:58pm PT

What if the "public" is against the "service"?

I have no doubt commercial guides and folks wanting a bolt ladder up CT will be publicly and vocally indignant, but neither opportunity was available before the gasoline-powered rape of the stone.

deuce4

climber

Hobart, Australia

Jan 21, 2012 - 07:59pm PT

We climbed to highest of the ice towers on top of the headwall, but not to the final summit mushroom, and Rolo's already made a point of stating that we didn't "truly" climb the thing. But it was a cool adventure, about 14 hours of fun climbing from the shoulder, and we still got the awesome 360 degree view on top out to the barren lands around (complete with a solo lenticular cloud perfectly formed and coming at us fast--the only one in the sky).

Back then, in 1993, it was soon after a film was made (with helicopter support), and the rumour was that the natural bridge to the final summit mushroom collapsed after the film crew carved out a cave with a chainsaw below the ice bridge. The final summit wasn't climbed for many years after that, apparently, until some folks brought 5' snow stakes to aid their way up the steeply overhanging final 25' of the summit mushroom (which is composed of highly aerated ice).

I often wonder how that aspect of the climb has been dealt with by more recent teams, or if the ice bridge has naturally returned. I always figured it would be good if someone left a stash of the 5' snow stakes for subsequent parties, but then again, the "fair means" could then have been heavily questioned by the pundits as well.

ps, that photo that is going around of pitch 10 is not really representative of the whole route, but it is odd that there are so many bolts in that area. My personal speculation is that Maestri was testing out his compressor, as below that point there are not a lot of bolted sections. He was probably waiting out some weather and just drilled the funk out of things out of boredom, I reckon. It is in a bit of a sheltered spot. It does make obvious, though, that respect for the mountain was not a prime consideration in his ascent.

Kimbo

Boulder climber

seattle

Jan 21, 2012 - 08:03pm PT

^^^ Much of the public is for the service. ^^^

you make a rather bold jump to a tenuous and insecure conclusion.

we have very little data on who is for what (loud proclamations on rather anonymous bulletin boards notwithstanding).

the only "consensus" i'm aware of is the '07 meeting where 75% voted to keep the bolts in place.

and, are you not a supporter of localism and democracy? where citizens and locals get to decide what happens on their land?

i know i'd be pissed if someone came into my climbing haunts and took it upon themselves to start removing routes they disagreed with.

Kimbo

Boulder climber

seattle

Jan 21, 2012 - 08:09pm PT

I have no doubt commercial guides and folks wanting a bolt ladder up CT will be publicly and vocally indignant, but neither opportunity was available before the gasoline-powered rape of the stone.

that's a nice argument, but elides my point:

develop locally informed consensus, and respect the result. you know, democracy in action?

after all, it IS an argentinian mountain, and all foreigners traveling there are GUESTS of the country.

philo

Trad climber

Somewhere halfway over the rainbow

Jan 21, 2012 - 08:15pm PT

Climber's do it all the time. They travel to exotic locales and put up routes by any means chosen often bolting routes to their hearts content. Are they asking the Pakastanis or Chinese or any locals if they mind them bolting their mountains?
We are not talking some home town crag here.
Gym rats, pad people and Joe Gumbies are not lining up to do the Compressor Route.
It is a different breed of beast that goes for these routes. Shouldn't they be the challenge the mountain provides not the one that man steals away with artifice and contrivance?

Kimbo

Boulder climber

seattle

Jan 21, 2012 - 08:16pm PT

and, to run with your "commercial interests" angle for a moment:

if any Argentinians are economically hurt by the actions of these two youngsters, i would unequivocally support their right to re-establish a route that had existed for what, 4+ decades?

to neglect consideration of the livelyhood of locals in favor of some abstract effete "purity" in "rock-climbing" reeks of the most misguided elitism i can imagine.

Kimbo

Boulder climber

seattle

Jan 21, 2012 - 08:29pm PT

often climbers do not consult with locals, but always they should. basic human respect. i think climbers more and more will be running into problems because of their disregard for local opinion. we see it all the time.

Shouldn't they be the challenge the mountain provides not the one that man steals away with artifice and contrivance?

climbing IS "artifice and contrivance", just as surely as any other sport, hobby, or game we humans engage in.

"don't use bolts. use bolts, when necessary (and I'LL define when necessary!), use ropes, no ropes, no oxygen, don't use chalk, must go barefoot and naked" WTF! climbing is way way more contrived and silly than most any game i can think of.

if climbing had no "artifice and contrivance", we wouldn't be having this discussion, because you wouldn't have your arbitrary "rules" to follow.

MarkWestman

Trad climber

Talkeetna, Alaska

Jan 21, 2012 - 08:55pm PT

I have no doubt commercial guides and folks wanting a bolt ladder up CT will be publicly and vocally indignant, but neither opportunity was available before the gasoline-powered rape of the stone.

I wasn't aware that commercially guided expeditions to Cerro Torre were available EVER. I'm sure over time someone has ropegunned a friend or acquaintance up the thing one on one in exchange for beer or a date with their sister but I haven't seen The Mazamas or Mountaineers basic scrambles course queuing up at Norwegos, much less AAI or RMI.

healyje

Trad climber

Portland, Oregon

Jan 21, 2012 - 08:57pm PT

if any Argentinians are economically hurt by the actions of these two youngsters, i would unequivocally support their right to re-establish a route that had existed for what, 4+ decades?

to neglect consideration of the livelyhood of locals in favor of some abstract effete "purity" in "rock-climbing" reeks of the most misguided elitism i can imagine.

If commercial considerations are to rule over a restoration of the route then, by all means, it should be a via feratta that gets put back up so as to maximize the opportunities - lordy, we wouldn't want to discriminate against anyone. A real local development opportunity no doubt or anyone making a living off Maestri's bolts should find other work.

Kimbo

Boulder climber

seattle

Jan 21, 2012 - 08:59pm PT

and one more @ healyje:

again, speaking of "commercial interests"-

I'll posit that the two climbers' removal of the bolts makes their adventure potentially WAYYYYY more lucrative than simply climbing a rather pedestrian 5.11 A2 up the side of the mountain.

MarkWestman

Trad climber

Talkeetna, Alaska

Jan 21, 2012 - 09:03pm PT

@Philo: Shouldn't they be the challenge the mountain provides not the one that man steals away with artifice and contrivance?

I think it's ironic that even with the convenience of the bolt ladders and fixed belays it took 42 years for climbers to find a better way up this route, and it goes at 5.11/A2. Seems like the challenge that everyone complains was 'stolen' has been there all along, and until now has defeated all suitors despite the access pass the Maestri line provided. Or, perhaps, the Maestri line narrowed people's focus into summitting rather than exploring.
Either way, 4 decades later it took two of the most talented among us to figure it out.

Kimbo

Boulder climber

seattle

Jan 21, 2012 - 09:06pm PT

If commercial considerations are to rule over a restoration of the route

not really a "restoration", from what I gather. Actually, quite the opposite: a destruction of the most popular(?) route on Cerro Torre (and a relic speaking to one man's Fitzcarraldo episode).

by all means, it should be a via feratta that gets put back up so as to maximize the opportunities - lordy, we wouldn't want to discriminate against anyone. A real local development opportunity no doubt.

no via ferrata was needed, since the old relic served just fine. Now, unfortunately, we might just end up with one.

MarkWestman

Trad climber

Talkeetna, Alaska

Jan 21, 2012 - 09:16pm PT

if any Argentinians are economically hurt by the actions of these two youngsters,

There won't be. The route is not a guide route and never has been. The Argentinian locals make their money off throngs of tourists who go on "ice walks" at the foot of the Torre Glacier. Which by the way is melting incredibly fast. The foot of it is nearly unrecognizable compared to only 2-3 years ago.

Mighty Hiker

climber

Vancouver, B.C.

Jan 21, 2012 - 09:19pm PT

Thank you to the many European and South American, and other international climbers, who have taken the trouble to post here - usually in English, too. It adds needed perspective to the discussion.

Is there any further first-hand news as to what Jason and Hayden actually did? Apart, that is, from the photo of someone holding about 100 bolt-like thingies, that were allegedly removed?

Melissa

Gym climber

berkeley, ca

Jan 21, 2012 - 09:21pm PT

Anders, translate the S. American interview w/ Google if you don't read spanish. It does a decent job, and the direct translations (pressure spikes) are amusing.