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Dingus McGee
Social climber
Laramie
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Sep 23, 2011 - 07:53pm PT
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Rick A,
please, read me carefully. I said skill, not boldness. I know exactly how far Henry got on two routes at Devils Tower. Perhaps enough said?
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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Sep 23, 2011 - 07:54pm PT
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Is skill all that counts in climbing anymore?
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Dingus McGee
Social climber
Laramie
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Sep 23, 2011 - 07:58pm PT
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Survival,
Henry was roped up. His boldness was probably with him at the time, but he didn't unrope. Apparently at this time and place his boldness didn't mean sh*t.
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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Sep 24, 2011 - 08:10pm PT
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The Needles "agreement" which partitioned the area into trad and sport venues has been mentioned at least twice in this thread. For whatever historical perspective it supplies, here is an account, posted on Mountain Project, by one of the locals who was there.
THE AGREEMENT The Needle's climbers have always had a strong sense of approaching the rock on its terms and to also have respect for the rock and Custer State Park. About 1988, before any Black Hills Climbers Coalition, before any climber's versus land managers' issues the local climbing community had a significant watershed event meeting. Sport climbing had made a very large impact along with the power drill at Mount Rushmore. To preserve the tradition of the Needles, but not to impede on the development of Rushmore and it's new history. A survey was sent to all known climbers at the time in the area and a meeting was scheduled. This was the result of that survey and meeting.
First of all it was recognized that the Mount Rushmore area and the Needles, Custer State Park would be considered two different areas, with their own histories and ethics. The boundary between these two places was considered to be the Harney Peak - Elkhorn Ridge line. On the Mount Rushmore side it rules would apply and on the Needles side the Needles rules would apply. But none of the climber's rules or ethics could supersede the governing agency's rules and regulations. Such as Custer Sate Park and the State of South Dakota for the Needles and Mount Rushmore National Memorial by the National Park Service.
Vern Phinney and Mike Engle were the two most instrumental climbers in the starting development for Mount Rushmore. They wanted to explore styles and techniques that were not condoned in the Needles. One of the most controversial techniques that they started locally was RAP-BOLTING. Their goal was to create classic hard routes with better protection that what was customary in the Needles. _Mr. Critical was their first project. Then the Rushmore area exploded with routes from the likes of Rusty and Mike Lewis, Ron Yahne, Paul Piana, Todd Skinner, besides Mike Engle and Verne Phinney. It was during this meeting that the original Rushmore contingent expressed that the most important thing they wanted were protected routes at Rushmore. If local feelings were that a route needed more bolts they could be added by two ways. One, the first ascent party could be contacted and get permission to add bolts to a route, or two, the local area activist could agree that new bolts need to be added to a route. The bottom line is that routes need to be safe. It was asked that some discretion be used on Rushmore traditional routes versus the rap-bolted routes.
The Needles in Custer State Park was the subject of a larger discussion. It was overwhelmingly agreed that new routes needed to stay traditional. This meant that all first ascents needed to be done from the ground up, no rap-bolting. Paul Muehl would say _anybody could beat the rock into submission for a new route, but we need to be able to meet the rock on it's terms not ours_ No one disagreed with the ground-up ethics and drilling bolts on lead. The use of hooks for bolting was never really discussed but some felt for the harder numbers hooking would become an acceptable level of change.
It was also agreed that no new bolts would be added to existing route ever, with one exception. That exception being if someone from the first ascent gave the OK or permission to add bolt to his or her route. If you were not able to contact these people for whatever reason such as no forwarding address, they no longer climb, or they have died, their routes were not to be changed with the addition of bolts. Raise yourself to the level of the climb; don't lower the climb to your level.
Another topic of discussion was the climbs along the Needles Highway, or road climbs. The park had expressed some concern about the Needles Eye parking lot. Their concern was the congestion of traffic especially when you get the combination of tour buses and climbers on the rock together. An agreement was made that we should not climb any routes that start from the Needles Eye parking lot after the hours of 10 o'clock am and before the hour of 5 o'clock pm between the dates of Memorial Day weekend and Labor Day weekend. So this would affect the Needles Eye, The Thimble, Bloody Spire, and Hitching Post. The Park expressed interest at one time to making this area off limits to climbing entirely. But they agreed to this plan to keep it opened for climbing.
It was also discussed not to add any more routes directly next to the road in the Needles Eye area or in the Ten Pins, especially the Ten Pins. This was out of respect for the rock itself. So as not to clutter the rocks the tourist can see from the road with a lot of climber paraphernalia. There were a lot of route that we could have climbed back in those days but we gave them up to save the rock and climbing in the Needles. Such a route was the _Homeward Spire Buttress_ the beautiful line that goes up the Homeward Spire next to the Needles Eye tunnel. In fact a route had been started on this rock but the climber who started it elected to remove the work he had done to preserve the rock and the agreement. Routes had been looked at on the Needles Eye, Tricouni Nail and others rock in the area too. In fact, a route was put on the north rib of Tricouni nail. This route had three bolts placed on it. Paul Muehl along with others removed the bolts from the route, to fit into the agreement of the locals.
What was the definition of a local? A local climber was a climber who made his residence in the area. They would be here year round to experience the Needles summer, fall, winter, and spring. If you did not live here you were not a local. Many climbers would come into the area for the entire or most of the climbing season. Some of these climber were Jim Black, Howard Doyle, Todd Skinner, John Matson, Brian Sarni just to name a few. These climbers would always call themselves guests in the area. They never claimed to be locals even though they climbed more than many locals did. These climbers had a lot of respect for the rock and local climbers, besides being respected themselves.
Who were the climbers that attended this meeting and came to such an agreement prior to any Black Hills Climbers Coalition? You would have to just look in Paul Piana's _Touch the Sky, The Needles in The Black Hills of South Dakota_ guidebook or Vern Phinney's guide book _Mount Rushmore National Memorial Climbers Guide. They are in there. Climbers like Paul Muehl, Mike Engle, Ron Yahne, Mike and Rusty Lewis, Vern Phinney, Mark Jacobs John Page, Lane Smith, and myself Bob Archbold. This is not a complete list for there were a lot more people involved than I can remember.
In realization most of the climbers then have moved on, the responsibilities cause of career commitments or sad to say but some have even past away. There is a new or changing group of climbers today in the Needles. The context of the agreement really has almost gotten lost except for a few of us that were around for the meeting. Particularly John Page, Ron Yahne and myself are the ones still around. Most of us had looked at the route potential on such rocks as Tricouni Nail, Homeward Spire and the Needles Eye and others. We had even top roped all these routes. Amongst that generation of climbers we could of and would have done some of these routes if it weren't for the agreement that had been made. I would hope in the future, as I fade away and John Page fades away and Yahne who knows what will happen to him, that the next generation of climbers and the one after that will concur with The Agreement of 1988 for the preservation of the Needles rock and Needles climbing.
Bob Archbold
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Sep 24, 2011 - 09:16pm PT
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It's the internet. Most of us do not care all that much about a single bolt in the needles on a climb that is rarely done. we do like to argue about bolts though.
Super stoked and strong sport climbers If they are super stoked about trad and really want to learn it become very good trad climbers in a relativly short period of time. Strength builds confidence. The key is IF THEY REALLY WANT TO LEARN TRAD AND STICK WITH IT... If not then its is just like anything else that you do not stick with...
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johnboy
Trad climber
Can't get here from there
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Sep 25, 2011 - 02:02am PT
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Rich, thanks for posting that, there's few of us that remember that agreement. As I've said before, I saw the winds of change as soon as it was decided. Personally I've viewed the coalition as representation of only those that could make their meetings, which were mostly in Rockerville and I lived in Newcastle back at that time.
There is so much unclimbed rock in the hills with a little hiking that it's not worth arguing about. I'll take the time to give my opinion to the new generation, but I'm not going to try to enforce it.
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couchmaster
climber
pdx
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Sep 25, 2011 - 11:32am PT
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In fact that you think this ("they have learned how to move, how to crank and how to rest, in short how to climb") is climbing makes me think you don't have a clue.
Clueless? Nope. You might be unaware Riley, that the posters son could get up .13b on toprope at age 10 (City Park, Index), or is leading bolted 5.13a lines with no hangs or falls at age 12. The fact that his dad won't let him lead hard gear routes is perhaps a major factor in the lad not leading those kinds of routes. As of now anyway... perhaps when he turns 13. I think that is quite common amongst the kids I see around here, although most of them are not pulling so hard, they still outclimb most of us on bolted routes, but the parents won't let them start climbing gear routes.
BTW, for this topic, I thought that Rgolds copy of what the locals have done to come to terms with the differing styles of Rushmore and Needles is the conclusive word and it warms my heart to see that they concur and agree to preservation. Let them sort out this single bolt that Henry pulled.
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Dingus McGee
Social climber
Laramie
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Sep 25, 2011 - 06:43pm PT
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couchmaster,
don't get your hopes too high. The document rgold posted by Bob Archbold is circa 1988. There have been several bolt wars since that time, boundaries reconsidered, rules made up and rules deleted and as always a group of uncompromising independents.
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Tomcat
Trad climber
Chatham N.H.
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Sep 25, 2011 - 07:08pm PT
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So, in the end the question is, are mental skills a critical part of being a climber? I always giggle when sport climbers tell me it's " all about the moves". No sh#t, you've eliminated all the other pieces.
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Tomcat
Trad climber
Chatham N.H.
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Sep 25, 2011 - 07:18pm PT
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I'll have to disagree. Trad climbing involves a lot of dealing with various mental pieces, route finding,gear planning and conservation,keeping a selection to create an anchor,proper slingage.Lot's of routes involve damping those fears and heading off into the unknown, with faith in oneself that if others were bold enough to tread this path, I should be too.I call that "mere mortals". People really rarely get on "scary" ground unwittingly, trad is just more demanding.
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Tomcat
Trad climber
Chatham N.H.
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Sep 25, 2011 - 07:39pm PT
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I like your civil tone, thanks.It's a good conversation to have.If all you do is shoot hoops from the foul line,alone, are you a basketball player?
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Sep 25, 2011 - 08:16pm PT
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I think mental skills are an important part of being a Climber. Sport trad and boulder. Topping out on a highball boulder problem, getting to the next bolt etc are all mental skills. trad requires a deeper skill set as does ice and alpine but the mental skills of dealing with fear, persaverance, keeping a positive attitude etc. are all present in sport and bouldering. personaly I get more scared on spurt than trad simply because I am trusting someone elses judgement on where the gear should be and I can not fire in a chicken piece or push that cam up the crack like I often can with trad.
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Tomcat
Trad climber
Chatham N.H.
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Sep 25, 2011 - 08:32pm PT
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lol Nick...I always have trad gear on my side at Rumney !
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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Sep 25, 2011 - 10:21pm PT
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I'll join in the drift...
I think sport climbing is training for trad climbing in the same sense that trad climbing was viewed as training for mountaineering when I first started.
In that distant past, the greater accessibility and lower commitment levels at local crags made it possible for many climbers to quickly surpass the technical standards of a generation of mountaineering elders. I still recall how astonished we were, as college students trained on 70 foot climbs at Devil's Lake, Wisconsin, to find how easy the so-called Grade VI's of the Tetons really were.
But then there were the fiascos, route-finding blunders galore, unplanned bivvy's and midnight returns from supposedly short routes, snail's pace progress on, for instance, wet rock, poor rope management, dropped gear, etc. etc. The climbing was pretty easy for us, but we still stunk.
I recall a bit in Lionel Terray's Les Conquérants de l’Inutile in which he ruminated on the fact that his clients, with easy access to crags (at the time in France called écoles d’escalade---climbing schools) climbed better than him on the rock pitches, and yet still needed him for his mountaineering skills and wisdom, which they lacked.
Of course, these cragging activities, originally viewed as preparations for the "real thing," eventually found a devoted following who had no interest in mountaineering at all, and so what was then called the sport of rock climbing grew to prominence. (I know, I know, it had been managing quite well in England and Germany for half a century or more by then.) And some of those whose orientation from the start was mountaineering spoke in deprecating tones about the mere rock-climbers, much as we hear trad climbers disparaging their sport climbing brethren today.
I think the situation today with sport climbing is quite analogous. It is already a critical training medium for hard trad climbing and high-level mountaineering. If it is not true already, it will soon be true that there are no trad climbers pushing the limits of trad who do not spend a significant amount of time on sport climbing. It is inevitable: tomorrow's best trad climbers will come from the ranks of today's accomplished sport climbers. There won't be any other good way to achieve the difficulty levels that will form the challenges to come.
Sure, there will be a large group of sport devotees who have no interest in moving on to the additional burdens trad imposes, just as there were rock climbers who weren't interested in mountaineering. And there will be sport climbers who venture quite timidly onto trad terrain, just as there were rock climbers who dialed back their intentions when they did go out to the mountains.
As an old fart who can't keep up with adolescent girls in the gym, I ought to be permitted a bit of self-serving grumbling. A somewhat less palatable admission is that I couldn't have kept up with some of them when I was 25 either.
It is all too easy to salve a battered ego by focusing on the few things I can do that they can't. But make no mistake, some of them will graduate to trad climbing, learn the gear and the mental game, and go on to things unimagined by the very best of the former generations. And on their way they will cruise with ease the greatest efforts of their elders, even as we did in the Tetons in the mid-sixties. That's just the way it is, and really, we wouldn't want it any other way, because otherwise we'd have deny the triumphs of our own best days.
There is, sadly, a darker side to this, the part corresponding to the Robbins quote about sport climbing being the child that wants to eat its mother. And here there is a difference between the rock climbers of old and their approach to mountaineering. Those old rock climbers took mountaineering on its own terms, reducing their expectations, paying their dues, learning the craft. They didn't try to melt down the mountains and recast them in a form more suitable to their abilities.
The same thing has not happened in the relation between sport and trad. A large group of sport climbers, I would say never including the best ones, have a sense of entitlement born of the nature of sport climbing, and think they ought to be able to bolt as they please anywhere. These folks aren't training for trad, they are basically out to convert trad to sport, which is to say eliminate all the skills and mental factors that constitute the difference between the two genres.
There can be no doubt that trad, as a genre, is in general losing this battle. Look at the number of long trad routes with bolted belay/rappel stations, stations that allow us to pare our racks and speed our ascents (no need to build anchors at the end of each pitch), and bail at any moment with no more work than throwing a rope.
Then look at the trad climbers who suddenly find themselves wondering if they should, as a public service to the less competent, retrobolt the run-out pitches of their days of high ability. This, apparently, because the audience has voted with its feet and now raps before the business.
The idea that a climb is like a bridge or roadway and has to be engineered to multiple-sigma safety standards for the protection and enjoyment of some "public" is something new, generic perhaps and appropriate to sport climbing, but utterly foreign to trad climbing. It may be good for the "public" in question, which is often mistaken for the total population of climbers, but it will decrease the range of experiences and choices that climbing offers, replacing the current if eroding complexity with a single difficulty standard.
On a personal note, I was never exceptionally good at any of it, but I've had the good fortune to have done and loved it all, from mountain hikes and scrambles to alpine mountaineering to back-country rock climbing to cragging and bouldering. There is such variety available, why would we want to squash it all down into a single genre? The ongoing vitality of the sport depends on our collective ability to keep the genres separately vibrant.
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steveA
Trad climber
bedford,massachusetts
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Sep 26, 2011 - 08:27am PT
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I'll continue the thread drift:
I had a long conversation with Jimmy Dunn on the phone yesterday. We were talking about a few climbs done in New Hampshire with just nuts in the hard 5.11 range, BITD. Jimmy was telling me about some of his leads in bare-feet, in the style of the Dresden climbers.
I have been out a fair amount this year and have been observing the "top" climbers of our area. I would venture to say that in trad climbing, here in N.H., the standards haven't been pushed much further ahead, in 30 years.
Ya, I know some will jump all over me for this opinion. I know sport climbing
limits are being pushed hard up here, but some of the stuff Jimmy Dunn and others did 30 years ago, with the gear and shoes of that era, has not been surpassed, IMHO.
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rick d
climber
ol pueblo, az
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Sep 26, 2011 - 09:07am PT
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"The same thing has not happened in the relation between sport and trad. A large group of sport climbers, I would say never including the best ones, have a sense of entitlement born of the nature of sport climbing, and think they ought to be able to bolt as they please anywhere. These folks aren't training for trad, they are basically out to convert trad to sport, which is to say eliminate all the skills and mental factors that constitute the difference between the two genres."
how true.
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Dingus McGee
Social climber
Laramie
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Sep 26, 2011 - 09:35am PT
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rick d,
the whole (almost) fabric of what is available in the Needles (and HP granite) granite is inadequate to what I seek in the sport routes I put up. The obvious differences include steepness, complexity of moves, lengths of difficulty and proximity of the next closest sport route. The best of the Black Hills locals see this too and show only a little interest in adding anything to the Harney Peak Granite and subset known as the Needles rock. They do their work elsewhere in the Hills (usually on limestone).
There is a nominal subset of this group (sport climbers) that seeks to alter these trad lines (Rich refer to).
Interesting. I have a job to do. Let's continue later.
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Mike Friedrichs
Sport climber
City of Salt
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Sep 26, 2011 - 09:44am PT
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These young kids...
...have no respect for tradition.
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steveA
Trad climber
bedford,massachusetts
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Sep 26, 2011 - 10:02am PT
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Mike,
I'm not sure if you were kidding or not.
I think the majority of young "kids" do respect tradition; otherwise you would see many more old trad routes cluttered with new bolts.
I'm just saying that with modern gear, particularly cams, many of the old trad routes are much easier to protect, which removes much of the fear factor.
In my conversation with Jimmy Dunn, he was telling me a story of leading this real hard pitch on Cathedral ledge, where he was 40 feet above his last pro-a hex nut. Today, the route is rarely done, but with modern cams, the pro. is much better.
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couchmaster
climber
pdx
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Sep 26, 2011 - 11:25am PT
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Stevea, he posted a picture clipping a bolt....he's got a rack of quickdraws and no gear, I think he joke making:-)
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