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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Sep 11, 2011 - 11:09pm PT
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Didn't Kurt Godel have something to say about this? (indirectly)
Is there an inherent intractable problem with something defining itself? (mind)
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MH2
climber
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Sep 11, 2011 - 11:15pm PT
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It's been said that it can be hard to see what is in front of your face. Is it so hard to see what's behind your face?
The mind is a bundle of solutions to the problems of movement. Movement toward food and away from predators.
Life which moves has a nervous system, life which is rooted doesn't.
The tunicate is an example of the ancestral vertebrate. The larvae are free-swimming and have sensory organs and a notochord. The larvae soon attach to a substrate and become sessile. As they mature into the adult form they digest what passes for their brain. It's only use now is meat.
Evolution has coughed up a weird one in the human case, but all our mental faculties are basically there for figuring out where to go and what to do.
Only we live in such leaden times that we need only go to the refrigerator and capture whatever doesn't get out of the way fast enough. Our formidable mental processing power is idling.
Climbing helps set us aright.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Sep 11, 2011 - 11:48pm PT
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TGT, it was about axiomatic systems...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gödel's_incompleteness_theorems
to quote:
Gödel's second incompleteness theorem can be stated as follows:
For any formal effectively generated theory T including basic arithmetical truths and also certain truths about formal provability, T includes a statement of its own consistency if and only if T is inconsistent."
not so arcane, e.g.: "This sentence is false."
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Wayno
Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
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Sep 12, 2011 - 12:00am PT
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Does mind exist beyond the scope of our purely human observations?
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Wayno
Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
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Sep 12, 2011 - 12:05am PT
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Quick... Why is there something and not nothing? :^)
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Captain...or Skully
climber
or some such
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Sep 12, 2011 - 12:18am PT
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Is there something? We could ALL be a dream.
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Wayno
Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
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Sep 12, 2011 - 12:24am PT
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A dream is something, ain't it?
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Captain...or Skully
climber
or some such
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Sep 12, 2011 - 12:40am PT
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There are also those we just wish someone had dreamed. Those poor bastards.
Shutup & get some pants, joxie.
You obviously don't get it.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 12, 2011 - 12:55am PT
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Now you guys aren't tackling the hard question at all, you're simply skirting it by repeating ad nauseum how matter IS mind or that mind is what this particular matter "does." Saying that digital models are essentially the same thing as experience is pitiful.
Ed says this:
My point in all this is we don't just have "first person experience," we have a consensus experience. We all understand that our "first person experience" can dominate our views, but we also do not take that to such an extreme as to say everyone else is a zombie... because they don't have my particular first person experience...
Now where has Ed lost touch with reality here - and I DO NOT say this meaning harm or disrespect. But there is a fundamental dislocate and thought distortion here that has taken many, many posts for me to finally rout out. And IMO, it is just this:
Now Ed says two things: A) We don't just have "first person experience." "Don't" here can only denote that we have some else beyond or before our 1st person, subjective experience, but in fact we never do. We don't have 2nd or 3rd person subjective experiences of ourselves, and when our left brain objectifies something making, for instance, our own minds objects of study, the thoughts and notions generated are merely qual or articles that pass through our field of awareness. We can never escape our 1st person subjective bubble while we are breathing, ergo "consensus experience" is information, and any and all information is to us humans, made real and is known only through or subjective bubble. There is no stuff or objective matter of fact granitic ju ju out there that is ever know or experienced as anything BUT qual, or articles of our experience. We get this "library" kind of mind set imagining that the "real" stuff is exactly that vast catalogue of quantifiable material that flows through our experience, but that experience is not the stuff itself. I am not suggesting that there is no reality, material or otherwise, beyond our
experience, but the only way we ever know as much is when said stuff become items of our experience.
Lastly, when Ed says that "first person experience" can dominate our views," this implies that we, as breathing human beings, have, encounter or somehow experience a "view" that is other than 1st person, when in fact first person experience IS our one and only view. Where I believe Ed looses his way here is in falsely equating 1st person subjective as having something to do with sensations or beliefs or feelings and such, when in fact these things are merely more qual, along with thoughts about digital processing, the idea that the meat brain DOES mind and so forth - all qual. 1st person subjective means that human experience occurs to a subject, us, and that experiential flow is known directly, 1st person, meaning we are the first and only beings who experience our lives.
I've tried to quit this thread five times already.
JL
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WBraun
climber
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Sep 12, 2011 - 12:59am PT
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"I've tried to quit this thread five times already. JL"
There's no escape .....
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Sep 12, 2011 - 01:09am PT
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Perhaps this thread is a partial proof of 'mind'.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Sep 12, 2011 - 01:11am PT
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so Largo, the fact that your first person experiences and my first person experiences, and their concordance as arrived at by our discussion, have nothing to do with anything?
if not, then why are we discussing this?
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TWP
Trad climber
Mancos, CO
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Sep 12, 2011 - 01:21am PT
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My comments derive from an assumption that "Big Bang" Theory is correct. Our observable universe began at a definite point of time from an infinitely small point of space and has changed, expanded and evolved into its current form ever since.
From that single point of space and time, the first observable matter and energy gave no hint of the complexity that what would come into being from this primordinal soup. It's a long way and a lot change and evolution from that primordinal soup to the universe 13.4 billion years hence. For example, all nuclear forms of matter (hydrogen, helium, etc.) only came into being long after the "Big Bang." They "evolved" too, as did stars, galaxies, etc.
Are the "mind" and "consciousness" displayed by animals and humans yet another material complexity that simply, inevitably and "naturally" comes into being as the universe evolves?
Whether this "mind" and "consciousness" now on display in life forms bears a relationship to some universal mind and consciousness that existed before or contemporaneously with the "big bang" may be unknowable in a scientific sense - at least at this point in time of our development of the "human" form of mind and consciousness, with its limitations given our early stage in the evolution of autonomous beings (i.e. separate and apart from the "mind" of a hypothetical "original mind" extant contemporaneously with the "Big Bang").
Perhaps I saying the same thing as Eric Beck who posted as follows:
"Consciousness is a fundamental property of matter, like mass or charge. It only manifests itself in structures of considerable complexity, i.e. brains. Evolution is development of more elaborate brains and concomitant higher consciousness."
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Sep 12, 2011 - 01:27am PT
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Largo: Saying that digital models are essentially the same thing as experience is pitiful.
Only the naive or deliberately dismissive would ever consider what the brain does in the context of "digital models".
You can keep attempting to separate content (qual) from mind (experience / processing), but from my perspective it is an artificial distinction whose only utility is to your argument. I would posit there is no distinction between experience and content at all - it's all experience.
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WBraun
climber
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Sep 12, 2011 - 01:30am PT
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"Consciousness is a fundamental property of matter, ..."
No
Consciousness is a fundamental property of the individual soul, and the supersoul.
It's the fundamental property of every living entity not just humans and animals.
It's very simple .... life comes from life.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Sep 12, 2011 - 11:18am PT
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TWP -
 the "Big Bang" is a singularity in time, at that moment, all of space existed
the last 10 years have seen a complete change in our view of the material composition of the universe, the majority of the universe, at this time, is something called "Dark Energy," at about 74%, the next largest fraction is "Dark Matter" at 22%, the remaining 4% is the stuff we are made out of... we have candidates for "Dark Matter," "Dark Energy" is something that we have no real utilitarian ideas about.
Evolution is not something which is guided by "improvement," every living thing is the result of the survival of it's ancestors, and all of those individuals are evolutionary equal. To say that the evolution of mind is a particularly superior adaptation one would have to see it's adoption by many other species. We continue to live in a world dominated by single cell life, and are utterly dependent on that life. Perhaps if you expand your notions to include the Gaia Hypothesis you might make an argument for organized "intelligence" but none is needed.
Claiming that consciousness is a "fundamental property of matter" would require a definition of consciousness. No such definition has yet to be accepted on this particular thread.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Sep 12, 2011 - 11:22am PT
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here's a STForum puzzler for this thread, for this day...
Identify the author of this copy:
"Wisconsin jumped out to an early lead and never looked back in a 51-17 win over UNLV on Thursday at Camp Randall Stadium.
The Badgers scored 20 points in the first quarter on a Russell Wilson touchdown pass, a Montee Ball touchdown run and a James White touchdown run.
Wisconsin’s offense dominated the Rebels’ defense. The Badgers racked up 499 total yards in the game including 258 yards passing and 251 yards on the ground.
Ball ran for 63 yards and three touchdowns for the Badgers. He also caught two passes for 67 yards and a touchdown.
Wilson completed 10-of-13 passes for 255 for Wisconsin. He threw two touchdowns and no interceptions.
Caleb Herring threw for 146 yards on 18-of-27 passing. Herring tossed two touchdowns and no interceptions.
UNLV had 292 total yards. In addition to Herring’s efforts through the air, the running game also contributed 146 yards for the Rebels.
THIRD QUARTER
Wisconsin appears to be in the driver’s seat en route to a win, as it leads 51-10 after the third quarter.
Wisconsin added to its lead when Russell Wilson found Jacob Pedersen for an eight-yard touchdown to make the score 44-3. The Badgers started the drive at UNLV’s 28-yard line thanks to a Jared Abbrederis punt return.
A one-yard touchdown run by Montee Ball capped off a two-play, 42-yard drive and extended Wisconsin’s lead to 51-3. The drive took 42 seconds. The key play on the drive was a 41-yard pass from Wilson to Bradie Ewing. A punt return gave the Badgers good starting field position at UNLV’s 42-yard line.
A 69-yard drive that ended when Caleb Herring found Phillip Payne from six yards out helped UNLV narrow the deficit to 51-10. The Rebels threw just three passes on the drive.
UNLV will start the fourth quarter with the ball at the 41-yard line.
HALFTIME
Wisconsin looks to be in control of the game as it leads 34-3 at the end of the second quarter.
Wisconsin expanded its lead to 27-0 when Montee Ball ran for a one-yard touchdown to finish a four-play, 65-yard drive. The key play on the drive was a 63-yard pass from Russell Wilson to Ball.
UNLV closed the gap to 27-3 when Nolan Kohorst finished off the 12-play, 64-yard drive with a 37-yard field goal.
Russell Wilson ran for a 46-yard touchdown to extend Wisconsin’s lead to 34-3. The Badgers scored in 31 seconds.
Wisconsin extended its lead to 34-3 when Kyle French kicked a 29-yard field goal to cap a two-play 47-yard drive. The Badgers scored with no time remaining in the quarter.
The Rebels will get the ball to start the second half.
FIRST QUARTER
Montee Ball ran seven times for 66 yards and one touchdown and caught a four-yard touchdown pass in the first quarter and Wisconsin leads UNLV 20-0.
Wisconsin opened the scoring when Russell Wilson threw a four-yard touchdown pass to Montee Ball to cap off a seven-play, 65-yard drive.
A 22-yard touchdown run by Montee Ball helped the Badgers extend their lead to 13-6. All 56 yards on the drive came on the ground.
Wisconsin added to its lead after James White pounded in a one-yard touchdown run to finish off an eight-play, 80-yard drive.
UNLV will start the second quarter with the ball on its 40-yard line."
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Sep 12, 2011 - 11:32am PT
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Even the KGB believed enough in ESP to devote considerable resources to its
exploitation. I have experienced it and it was demonstrably not subjective.
I'm not talking about Yuri Geller nonsense, either. Now, a computer can often
beat me at chess but it can't read my mind. Ha, that just reminded me of
the Soviet Chess machine's efforts to influence matches telepathically.
Of course, they had a very susceptible target in Bobby Fischer.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Sep 12, 2011 - 11:49am PT
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In the philosophy of Kashmir Shaivism they define the mind Thus:
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Universal consciousness becomes the mind by contracting in accordance with the object perceived.
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The brain is just like a TV set, tuning in waves of Mind into our earth suit. Sure if you pull the plug, the show goes off but the waves are still there.
PEace
Karl
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