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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Aug 24, 2012 - 05:45pm PT
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Thanks, HT and Bruce. Helpful contributions, especially those of HT. It would have been quite understandable to others had Norway sentenced the murderer to life in prison (which in effect it has), or even executed him. There are certainly people in Norway who'd support the latter, just as there is a xenophobic right-wing minority. It's a country that has for the most part moved past blind retribution, and arguably has a more enlightened judicial and penal system. That may or may not be "better", or "right", but that's their choice.
FWIW, to many outsiders (and Norwegians) the choices of the US when it comes to guns, authoritarianism, crime, violence, and its judicial and penal system seem much less reasoned or defensible than those of Norway.
When Norway was attacked by Germany in April 1940, it took many Norwegians and its government by surprise. Despite ample warnings, they were unprepared, and indeed a few thought the British were attacking. (The English had mined some of the sea approaches to Norway, to deter Germany-bound shipping, e.g. iron ore from Narvik, and soon enough would have interdicted the shipping lanes, at least. But on a relatively amicable basis.) Many asked why it was happening to Norway, although there were ample strategic grounds for what the Germans did, and what the British might have done. The reaction to the murders last year was in some ways similar - there's perhaps an element of naivete, or insularity, in Norwegian attitudes. Perhaps what happened will temper that with bitter experience that the world in fact isn't always a nice place.
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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Aug 24, 2012 - 06:12pm PT
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there's perhaps an element of naivete, or insularity, in Norwegian attitudes. Perhaps what happened will temper that with bitter experience that the world in fact isn't always a nice place. How many mass murderers has Norway had?
As far as I can find, only Breivik, 77 dead.
Sweden has had 4 in over 100 years, total 25 dead.
Perhaps the Norwegians are resilient enough and smart enough to not overreact. To not start locking up every murderer for life or to hang the worst of them.
They are likely reasonable enough to realize they have much lower crime and especially murder rates than the US are are not likely to emulate our legal and penal systems.
You CAN bet they're already paying much closer attention to neo-Fascists and racist hate groups.
Norwegians fought the Germans throughout WWII and never surrendered in spite of over 400,000 occupying German troops, a puppet government and many collaborators. They are very tough people.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Aug 24, 2012 - 08:26pm PT
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Uh, so this relatively young man with a proven will to kill mass quantities is getting out in 10-20 years?
This is what liberal idealism has wrought. Very smart and sophisticated. Very intellectual and enlightened.
F*#king idiots are begging for it again....I'd say they deserve what the sow, but that would be unfair to the future victims...
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Aug 24, 2012 - 09:30pm PT
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Please read the above, and links. Breivik was sentenced to 21 years. Even after 21 years he can't just be released - there has to be a report that he's no longer a danger to the public, and otherwise the sentence is renewed, five years at a time.
You seem to have difficulty accepting that other peoples have different value systems, and even threatened by it. Norway is in many ways a more conservative place than the US. At the same time, it's more liberal in other ways, at least from your perspective. It's risky to make uninformed generalizations and comparisons, and ultimately it comes down to your not being in Kansas any more.
And yes, it seems likely that the hard right-wingers in Norway and their fellow travellers are now under quite heavy surveillance. It's almost impossible to stop a single fanatic, but with the murders, and the report a few weeks ago, the police has considerably stepped up their activities.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Aug 24, 2012 - 09:41pm PT
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there has to be a report that he's no longer a danger to the public, and otherwise the sentence is renewed, five years at a time.
You believe that? You'd let this rat-f*#ker out into the public? Me and you are very different indeed.
You seem to have difficulty accepting that other peoples have different value systems, and even threatened by it.
You mean like radical nationalism or Sharia-law? Yeah, I do. And they can go f*#k themselves!
Norway is in many ways a more conservative place than the US. At the same time, it's more liberal in other ways, at least from your perspective. It's risky to make uninformed generalizations and comparisons, and ultimately it comes down to your not being in Kansas any more.
This is why I live in "kansas" and not the politically corrected Euro-Zone. We either kill these rats or put them away forever. HE F*#KING KILLED 77 PEOPLE!!! You want to "give him another shot"? That is suicidal, bro. Literally.
He chose his path. He killed. That's it! Remove him from society.
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splitter
Trad climber
Hodad, surfing the galactic plane
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Aug 24, 2012 - 10:38pm PT
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"f*#king idiots are begging for it again...reap what you sow!"
bluering - dood, harsh critisim, bro! norway was dealt an undeserved & horrible tragidy beyond imagination! the same thing could happen here. has nothing to do with their morals, value system, etc! it was pure evil, disguised as a socio-political, blah, blah, blah.
the dood is a bombastic & pretentious, psychopath (sociopath or whatever) he has shown no remorse, etc! he will forever be a threat to society he will never get out, imo! under their laws that was the most they could give him, but could be extended indefinitly if he is deemed a threat to society. what did i just say ... he is a bombastic, pretentious & insolent sociopath. that revels in what he has done. he will always be a threat to society.
i am glad they did not find him insane (that would suggest that he could be reformed/healed, or whatever over time) because he isn't. he is just pure evil & always will be. that would preclude from consideration his rehabilitation & the possibility of ever being released, imo! he will slowly rot in his wickedness...!
edit: what type of mentality is that?? (i am talking about your quote that i posted above!!). putting the blame on Norway??? you are playing right into the hands of this evil bastard. get a clue!!!
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Aug 24, 2012 - 11:10pm PT
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Spiltter, we'll have to wait and see I guess. From what I see, only giving him a chance at societal interaction, is a a chance at another mass shooting.
He has stated his murderous intentions. Would you ever want your family around a guy like this that a 'shrink' deemed to be okay now? Would you really want this as#@&%e back out?
He's gone, bro. He flunked the test on societal behavior. If you don't execute the rat, lock him up forever. He gave up his "rights" 77 times.
He failed. We would be failures to others to let him back out. The blood would be on the hands of apologists like you. Not me.
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splitter
Trad climber
Hodad, surfing the galactic plane
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Aug 25, 2012 - 12:16am PT
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"Would you ever want your family around a guy like this that a .shrink' said was okay?"
Uhmmm! Perhaps i wasn't clear enough in what i said in regards to that in my last post? They found him sane (pretty sure that is what i read). i believe that is true. IF the would have found him insane, that would have suggested he could get psychological/chemical (or whatever) rehab over the next 10-20 years & eventually rehabilitated, cured, healed or whatever the hell slight of hand the would have conjured up for his eventual release. He was deemed sane (was he not?). THAT, "precludes" the possibility of ever being rehabed, etc., & eventually released! Because he is what he is, sane, he doesn't require treatment. He did it because he is pure evil, ie, Charlie Manson!! He is a threat to society & always will be...he (nor CM) should never be released! I believe they made a wise decision. There can never be an argument by a psychiatrist saying: "Well, he has had 10+ years of treatment/intervention and is reformed (or whatever) & is no longer a threat is ready for release."
Because he isn't crazy (mentally impaired/ill) so why would he need a psychiatrist/intervention? it would only be a hoax, a way for him to obtain release (early release). He is firmly set in his ways. he will never change. He will always be a threat to society. He will never be released. If they had the death penalty, or if he was here in America, he would have been a candidate for it. Or in the least, he would have gotten life. They have neither,in Norway. BUT, they have a clause which states that if he is still deemed a threat to society he could & would beheld indefinitely...for life!!
I hope that is the case. He wanted to be found "sane". The guy should be a poster boy for Narcissism (among other things). His sanity, precludes from consideration any possibility for psych rehabilitation (because he is sane/people who are sane do not need, require it). he will always be sane. HIS form of sanity is deemed a threat to society. And just like CM, he should never e released from prison.
To answer your question: NO, I would not want my family around a guy like this. I would be compelled to shoot him dead, on the spot!!!
edit: maybe I am missing something in the big picture surrounding this d00d.
edit:MH it suggests that Norway is, in general, a much mellower nation than the U S of A! We have our past, our social & cultural demons. But it also suggests, that Norway has an effective policy when it comes to rehabilitation, etc! But, some people are not candidates for it. Particularly not sociopaths with a particular agenda that exhibit extremely violent & narcissistic (keeping it brief here) patterns of behavior. This is so entrenched into their identity that they are not candidates for rehabilitation. Is Charles Manson? I am just saying, that i doubt this guy will ever be transformed. that IS, a rather judgmental position for a Christian to take, because i know it is possible, but highly unlikely. And even if he did, he still has a debt to pay to society. What Norway determines , is their business. It does show, in my opinion, a VERY forgiving & excepting society in general. That is very commendable in my opinion. I just hope they make the right decisions over the next 20 years and beyond. i believe they will !! These are just my relatively uninformed ramblings, take them with a grain of salt...no harm or insults intended!!
Narcisstic personality disorder. (this is only part of his makeup/he is a cold blooded sociopath) it is who he is. imo, there is little/nothing man can do to change it (in my studies & e experience). not to be arrogant, but i spent years in psych, and post graduate studies involving it.
Your right, it has nothing to do with me. But,I am humane, and it has effected society world wide.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Aug 25, 2012 - 12:21am PT
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We would be failures to others to let him back out.
Who's the "we", angry man? The decision has nothing to do with you. And not a single person I've heard of has in any way been an apologist for what the murderer did, although perhaps there are some extremists, mostly right-wingers, who do so.
As for the relative efficacy of the legal, judicial, and penal systems of Norway and the USA. Well, they're very different countries culuturally, politically, socially, and economically, and Norway is materially wealthier. Both countries are liberal western democracies. But the information that was posted about ten back, and other information, indicates that Norway imprisons less than 10% as many people of the USA, with much better results in terms of recidivism. The rate of violent crime, in particular gun crime, is much lower. What does that suggest to you?
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Aug 25, 2012 - 12:21am PT
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To answer your question: NO, I would not want my family around a guy like this. I would be compelled to shoot him dead, on the spot!!!
Okay, I roger that.
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splitter
Trad climber
Hodad, surfing the galactic plane
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Aug 25, 2012 - 01:27am PT
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Bluering,
That would be my gut reaction. Of course it depends on the circumstances. i would be inclined to think of the safety of my family first & foremost. Bt, if 20 years from now he is incredibly remorseful, had set forth to attempt to somehow make right the horrible wrong that he did. It was his life, his burden to do whatever he could to right his wrong, who the hell am I to do anything that would discourage or condemn this. i (my heart) would bleed with him in his remorse. i do believe this would be the best end.
And, regardless of his disposition, I would have a strong desire to get inside this guys head. I do not, necessarily, have any desire to personally inflict harm or punish him. That is Norway's business (& ultimately Gods, imo)! I am a therapist, what would you expect of a therapist. i have had close & personal contact with sociopaths & serial killers from a young age. i began a thesis which was in regards to just that. Interviewing sociopaths in various institutions, seeing if there was any significant change, remorse, etc.!
I do recall that the young sociopath that i had as a neighbor & "friend" that attempted to kill me, approached me in a very compromising situation. My father turned him in for a very serious crime he had done. In reality, he had been doing similar things all his life. Rape, got at least one 12 y.o. girl pregnant, torchered & killed numerous animals, would do hideous things to them, robbery, burglary, theft & on and on? (besides attempting to kill me).
He was 14-15 at the time I had just turned 13. He cornered me (had another guy with him) my father had turned him in and he new it (it was obvious that i had informed my father of his crime). He had been in treatment for about six months (locked up), and they had let him out for the weekend. I thought i was toast. He walked up and looked me in the eyes and said, "I want you to tell your father that i am very thankful for what he did, I have a lot of problems and they are helping me with them." he shook my hand and turned and walked away. So there you go. i believe intervention must start very young to have any effect. But anything is possible, that is my belief.
edit: ultimately it will be Norway's decision what to do with him. All we can do is pray that they are given wisdom & that he is transformed! My hope is for healing for Norway in regards to this matter. Their social, cultural, moral, political & whatever beliefs are not my business & are not of any concern to me. i look at them as fellow humane beings. We could share & learn a lot from each other. The bottom line, as silly and naive as it may seem, is healing, peace & love. Why fret over anything else?
EDIT: And what about the victims? Shouldn't they have a say in this? && lives forever snuffed out. they cannot speak out about it. But, how about their loved ones? Do they have a say like they do here in America when the killer comes up for a parole hearing? They have a very strong presence here in the USA. I hope they also do in Norway!!
Who could live with themselves with the knowledge of knowing they silenced 77 young lives in a moment of rage? This guy is evil incarnate! Just looking at his pictures & watching somemore vids, that smug, smirking, practically sneering at times. What really bothers me is they are constantly talking about his agenda, beliefs, manifesto's and all that crap. Prollie exactly what he wants. It should be silenced. He should be silenced. What a loathsome character. I wouldn't want to be anywhere around the guy. Pathetic to say, but I prollie would be tempted to off the guy. He is beyond repugnant, disgusting.
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ß Î Ø T Ç H
Boulder climber
bouldering
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Feb 19, 2013 - 02:52am PT
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(CNN) -- The shooting spree at Sandy Hook Elementary School may have been motivated by a desire by Adam Lanza to outdo Anders Behring Breivik, the Norwegian man who killed 77 people in July 2011, law enforcement sources told CBS Evening News.
The unnamed sources said Lanza saw himself as being in direct competition with Breivik, who killed eight with a bombing in downtown Oslo before he moved to a nearby island where he hunted down and fatally shot 69 people.
According to the sources, the 20-year-old Lanza wanted to top Breivik's death toll and went to the Connecticut school on December 14 because it was the "easiest target" and had the "largest cluster of people."
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wivanoff
Trad climber
CT
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Feb 19, 2013 - 07:39am PT
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(CNN) -- The shooting spree at Sandy Hook Elementary School may have been motivated by a desire by Adam Lanza to outdo Anders Behring Breivik, the Norwegian man who killed 77 people in July 2011, law enforcement sources told CBS Evening News.
They know this how?
From the same article you quoted:
The same officials also linked Lanza's actions to violent video games.
O.O
A spokesman for the Connecticut State Police dismissed the CBS report, calling it speculation.
"It's inaccurate ... I talked with CBS and told them that," Lt. Paul Vance told CNN. "We are dealing with a deceased shooter and trying to rebuild history."
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neebee
Social climber
calif/texas
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hey there say, anders... thank you for sharing this...
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Bad Climber
Trad climber
The Lawless Border Regions
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Here we have the crux of the problem--at least to a large degree:
The unnamed sources said Lanza saw himself as being in direct competition with Breivik, who killed eight with a bombing in downtown Oslo before he moved to a nearby island where he hunted down and fatally shot 69 people.
According to the sources, the 20-year-old Lanza wanted to top Breivik's death toll and went to the Connecticut school on December 14 because it was the "easiest target" and had the "largest cluster of people."
These sad psychos get ASTRONOMICAL media coverage for their heinous deeds, and then other sad psychos think: Yeah! That's awesome! I wanna do that, too! I can do better than that punk!
Every mental health expert I've heard speak on this issue agrees: Publicizing these events virtually guarantees we will get more of them. Gladwell wrote about this in the New York Times and, I think, in his book Tipping Point. One term for the phenomenon is "The Werther Effect," named after an 18th century novel by Goethe, The Sorrows of Young Werther, a tale of a young man whose self-absorption and unrequited love eventually lead to his suicide. A whole spate of copy-cat suicides followed in the wake of this very popular novel. The behavior, in a weird way, was "normalized" for a certain kind of people. Suicide, previously unthinkable for most of these young men, became a viable option, a way to solve their problems. Hey, Werther did it. Hans and Deter did it. Why not me? And so it goes. Only today, substitute freaks like Lanza et al.
In fact, suicides in general are not reported in the news because of this effect. The correlation between reporting and increased rates of suicide is too strong to ignore. The problem with doing this for the mass shooting events is that there is simply too much money in it for the mass media! Those psychos are too addicted to the big ratings these stories bring to cut back the coverage in any way. And there are some things we could do: Never report the shooter's name; never show his picture; never report his jackass grievances or publish any asinine manifesto. Condemn the shooter in the strongest possible terms and focus on helping the victims. The criminals should be immediately forgotten--and all wannabees need to see that they will never be recognized for what they do--ever.
Of course, this will never happen.
Oh well.
BAd
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couchmaster
climber
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Bad climber is spot on the money. In Japan, they do not post a picture of any transgressor or attacker, they ONLY put the victims pictures and info out into the world. They do that so that people on the edge of mental instability do not identify with the attacker. They will identify instead with the victim(s) and the cycle will not continue. They think the way our media always focus on the attacker instead of the victims is insane.
There is one instance where our news media self censor. Look it up, true. They will not post pictures and names of school age (even college kids of over legal age) suicides. The American Psychiatric association asked the media to refrain from that (and they do) as they learned that posting photos of a person who has killed themselves will commonly bring even more suicides as other college imitators and copy catters would identify and sympathize with, then follow the lead and kill themselves - following the first suicide.
That they do it for suicides so that they don't wind up with a bunch of copycats in a university shows they believe the effect is true. That they do not do it where it's critically important, like in the norway shooting, is interesting. And horrifying.
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absolute zero
Trad climber
camino
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Jan 15, 2017 - 09:13am PT
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a struggle of a read, because it reflects humans at their worst.
but uncomfortably appropriate as america enters a very dark era.
bluering and rick sumner and other fear-riddled humans you might look to the perpetrator for spiritual guidance.
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