Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
blahblah
Gym climber
Boulder
|
|
|
May 23, 2011 - 07:44pm PT
|
Riley your last post was just a mess.
For starters, there was no jury in this case, as the trial court found that there were no genuinely disputed facts that would require a jury's fact finding ability. The Court of Appeals agreed. Apparently the case is still under appeal to the Washington Supreme Court, but I'm taking other people's word for that--I haven't reviewed the records.
Anyway, the judge would never have met or seen the plaintiff in all likelihood, as there was no trial--the case was decided on written documents (that's essentially what "summary judgment" means, which is what happened in this case).
Further, for better or worse, there is generally no provision for any "third party" examination of the fork: each side has its experts--there are no truly independent experts. Maybe there should be, but that's not how the game is played.
Don't mean to flame you too bad and I'm sure you have some good thoughts on this, but your lack of knowledge of how a lawsuit works causes you to make some crazy, flat-out wrong assumptions about what went on.
Edit--actually after re-reading my post, it doesn't perfectly describe the posture of the case, which is complicated. The case isn't over yet--the trial court made certain, important rulings that were appealed before the case was concluded (that's relatively unusual), and that's where things are now.
|
|
graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
|
|
|
May 23, 2011 - 07:56pm PT
|
The Toyota analogy is poor.
She bought a Toyota, crashes it, then bought a defective replacement part and places it on her Toyota- say for the purpose of analogy she bought a new frontaxle.
She then got in another accident, a year later, in which she needed more replacement parts- a rear axle.
Then, another year later, the front axle failed.
This is a better match to the facts:
She bought a Toyota, crashes it, then took it back to Toyota for a warranty repair. They replace the front axle.
She then got in a minor accident which caused only a flat tire.
Then, another year later, the front axle failed.
Read pages 3 & 4 here:
http://www.courts.wa.gov/content/Briefs/A01/654632%20Appellant's.pdf
Also read pages 3 & 4 here:
http://www.courts.wa.gov/content/Briefs/A01/654632%20Respondent's.pdf
|
|
Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
|
|
|
May 23, 2011 - 08:05pm PT
|
I am asking what your relationship to this case is.
Asked and answered. (Caught you! You haven't read every post on this thread like you claimed! I'll bet you missed my post where I described my attitude towards REI also.)
Graniteclimber, I'm now calling you out for the liar that you are.
Just to be sure, I reread the entire thread. As I accurately remembered, you have never identified your relationship to this case, other than to not answer in various creative ways.
I have to assume that you are doing this for a reason, and it must be somthing that would embarrass you if it were known, or you'd just answer.
So, if you contest me, quote the phrase where you answered. There isn't one, except for your non-answers.
Putz.
|
|
graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
|
|
|
May 23, 2011 - 08:18pm PT
|
So the take away from all this: people who abuse bikes shouldn't buy cheap carbon fiber. Multiple crashes after the frame and fork were replaced is the real issue. Not manufacturing defects.
Were buyers of the bike aware they were buying a "cheap carbon fiber" fork that wouldn't hold up to hard use, or did buyers think they were getting an REI made "top-rated Novara bicycle?" (Again, REI's marketing line: "REI makes top-rated Novara bikes for all types of cycling including mountain, road, touring and commuting, plus bikes for designed for women and kids." http://www.lmgtfy.com/?q=novara+rei);
How common is it for forks to fail? There were 260 units sold in 2005 (or around there) and by 2009 there were two failures that we know of, both of which resulted in significant injuries. "Injuries reported include a fractured clavicle, broken teeth, facial damage and head injuries." I didn't see anything saying that Monika broker her clavicle, so that must have happened to the second person.
2 out of 260 -- Is this a high number or a low number for bicycle forks? I'm asking because I don't know. This isn't my thing. A lot of my friends ride but none of them have mentioned anything about breaking a fork.
http://www.cpsc.gov/cpscpub/prerel/prhtml09/09234.html
Office of Information and Public Affairs Washington, DC 20207
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
June 2, 2009
Release # 09-234 Firm’s Recall Hotline: (800) 426-4840
CPSC Recall Hotline: (800) 638-2772
CPSC Media Contact: (301) 504-7908
Bicycles Recalled by REI Due to Fork Failure
WASHINGTON, D.C. - The U.S. Consumer Product Safety Commission, in cooperation with the firm named below, today announced a voluntary recall of the following consumer product. Consumers should stop using recalled products immediately unless otherwise instructed. It is illegal to resell or attempt to resell a recalled consumer product.
Name of Product: 2005 Novara Trionfo Bicycles
Units: About 260
Distributor: Recreational Equipment Inc. (REI), of Kent, Wash.
Hazard: The fork can separate from the steerer tube which can cause the rider to lose control, posing a fall hazard.
Incidents/Injuries: The firm has received two reports of forks separating causing riders to fall. Injuries reported include a fractured clavicle, broken teeth, facial damage and head injuries.
Description: This recall involves 2005 Novara Trionfo bicycles with Aprebic carbon fiber forks. The bicycles are blue and white with black forks, and have the name “Novara” printed on the bars.
Sold at: REI retail stores nationwide from January 2005 through August 2006 for between $720 and $1,900.
Manufactured in: Taiwan
Remedy: Consumers should immediately stop using the recalled bicycles and return them to an REI retail store a free repair.
Consumer Contact: For additional information, contact REI at (800) 426-4840 between 7 a.m. and 2 a.m. ET Monday through Friday, or visit the firm’s Web site at www.rei.com
|
|
apogee
climber
|
|
|
May 23, 2011 - 08:28pm PT
|
Hey, gc, it seems like your MO in this ridiculously long and repetitive thread is to keep it on the front page as long as possible.
Suggestion: just type 'Bump'. It'll save you a lot of typing.
|
|
graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
|
|
|
May 23, 2011 - 08:35pm PT
|
Hey, gc, it seems like your MO in this ridiculously long and repetitive thread is to keep it on the front page as long as possible.
Apogee, that's funny coming from someone who just posted to the 8,000+ post Death of the Republicans Wrong Thread and various other ridiculously long and repetitive politard threads.
Date Forum Topic Author
May 23, 2011
05:28pm PST REI shirks responsibility & appeals Monika Johnson case
Hey, gc, it seems like your MO in this ridiculously long and repetitive thread is to keep it on the front page as long as possible. Suggestion: just type 'Bump'. It'll save you a lot of typing.... apogee
May 23, 2011
02:38pm PST Death of the Republicans Wrong Thread
"But we have today a generation of spoiled brats, all brought up within the benefits of capitalism, whining about how bad it is." Really? 'all of them' are spoiled brats? Don't you think that's a hyperbolic oversimplification? After all, you and the rest of the Repubs are part of that all, you kn... apogee
May 23, 2011
01:38pm PST My prom date is poor... (OT)
Now this thread is gonna get some legs.... Credit: apogee ... apogee
May 23, 2011
01:27pm PST Death of the Republicans Wrong Thread
suap, not sure I ever saw an answer to this question regarding the NR article you posted: So, suap...do you really feel the same way? That capitalism has bred a bunch of selfish, spoiled brats and that it is a woefully misunderstood system that has brought our society nothing but positive gains?... apogee
May 23, 2011
01:12pm PST would you TRUST these rap anchors?
"Also as far as the low inpact, webbing and tat will hopefully flush out after a few flash floods while bolts (possibly useless) will remain for much longer." Flush out to where? They don't just dissolve into nothing. Just about any kind of passage through technical terrain is going to involve... apogee
May 23, 2011
12:24pm PST Death of the Republicans Wrong Thread
Looks like Pawlenty is out of the gate... http://www.cnn.com/2011/POLITICS/05/23/pawlenty.announcement/index.html Credit: apogee ... apogee
May 23, 2011
12:19pm PST Death of the Republicans Wrong Thread
Credit: apogee A Higher Standard Discourse that assumes Americans have a brain between their ears. Credit: apogee ... apogee
May 23, 2011
11:57am PST Obama is finished
Credit: apogee A Higher Standard Discourse that assumes Americans have a brain between their ears. Credit: apogee ... apogee
May 23, 2011
11:47am PST Obama is finished
Credit: apogee Fiscally Responsible. Making the GOP look like a bunch of drunk teenagers with their daddy's credit card. Credit: apogee ... apogee
May 23, 2011
11:40am PST Obama is finished
Credit: apogee Strong on Defense. Making the GOP look like whining pussies.... apogee
May 23, 2011
11:37am PST Death of the Republicans Wrong Thread
Credit: apogee Fiscally Responsible. Making the GOP look like a bunch of drunk teenagers with their daddy's credit card. Credit: apogee ... apogee
|
|
blahblah
Gym climber
Boulder
|
|
|
May 23, 2011 - 08:45pm PT
|
Apogee's brilliant contribution to this thread was the following:
As a dedicated REI hater, I'd love to pin this on them, but in this case, MH & JE nail the reality right between the eyes.
If you want to hate anyone in this tragic situation, hate the insurance industry.
There was never any evidence whatsoever that an insurance company was involved in settling the claim against REI or directing the litigation.
There's plenty of evidence to the contrary--that REI itself and not an insurance company is in charge of the case (to wit, the involvement of Perkins Coie, a law firm in thick with REI--there are other reasons that let me to suspect that REI was handling this directly, but the Perkins Coie connection is all you need to know.)
Apogee--maybe you're happy to both be and remain ignorant of what's going on here, but others want to discuss it, maybe learn something, maybe share what they know. So take a hike if you're not interested.
|
|
Mangy Peasant
Social climber
Riverside, CA
|
|
|
May 23, 2011 - 08:46pm PT
|
gc, don't you know?
apogee is the self-appointed ST thread moderator - he alone determines a thread's merit.
No matter what you think of REI - it still has some relationship to climbing.
Floyd Landis and Lance Armstrong on the other hand....
EDIT: BTW, hating an entire "industry" that provides such a basic service as insurance is idiotic. I have no doubt every one of us can tell a few stories about friends and acquaintances that would have been financially devastated if it weren't for the insurance industry. I can name a few thousand in the midwest right now...
|
|
Gene
climber
|
|
|
May 23, 2011 - 08:50pm PT
|
I wonder which will last longer, this thread or the legal process.
Anyone have anything new to add?
g
|
|
apogee
climber
|
|
|
May 23, 2011 - 09:05pm PT
|
Bump!
|
|
Mangy Peasant
Social climber
Riverside, CA
|
|
|
May 23, 2011 - 09:10pm PT
|
Are we gonna get another "DELETE THIS THREAD" tantrum?
|
|
Gene
climber
|
|
|
May 23, 2011 - 09:14pm PT
|
Are we gonna get another "DELETE THIS THREAD" tantrum?
No. Anyone have anything new to add?
g
|
|
klk
Trad climber
cali
|
|
|
May 23, 2011 - 09:17pm PT
|
this thread is worse than bleak house
|
|
Mangy Peasant
Social climber
Riverside, CA
|
|
|
May 23, 2011 - 09:20pm PT
|
Gene, my question wasn't directed at you.
As for your question: "Anyone have anything new to add?"
Why not ask the same in all the other threads where folks just banter?
The forum is just a place to shoot the sh#t. Occasionally we learn something.
Just like most conversation.
EDIT: See, I just learned something: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bleak_House
|
|
graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
|
|
|
May 23, 2011 - 09:45pm PT
|
There's plenty of evidence to the contrary--that REI itself and not an insurance company is in charge of the case (to wit, the involvement of Perkins Coie, a law firm in thick with REI--there are other reasons that let me to suspect that REI was handling this directly, but the Perkins Coie connection is all you need to know.)
I agree with you, blahblah. This is speculation, but the best explanation of how this came to be bungled so badly may be that REI was self-insuring and then tried handle this internally at first. After they realized they were in over their heads they ran to Perkins Coie, but it was too late.
I don't know what insurance REI has or does not have, but there are a lot of companies out there which do not carry proper insurance. REI many not have even thought of itself as not being a "manufactuer" and may have believed it didn't need product liability coverage.
|
|
apogee
climber
|
|
|
May 23, 2011 - 10:01pm PT
|
Bumpity!
|
|
Mangy Peasant
Social climber
Riverside, CA
|
|
|
May 23, 2011 - 10:06pm PT
|
Get ready! Full on tantrum is imminent...
|
|
graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
|
|
|
May 23, 2011 - 10:15pm PT
|
Granite- the tire was not flat it was replaced and it was an auto vs bike accident.
Her words- minor accident- but she was hit by a car.
I posted links to BOTH REI's and Monika's appellate briefs with the page numbers. Here they are so you don't have to backtrack.
From Monika's brief:
Ms. Johnson was involved in a very minor accident on the bike on September 13, 2006. (ld.) The bike only sustained a flat front tire. (Id.)She took the bike to REI and the technician there fixed the flat tire, inspected the bike, and found no other damage. (Id.) The accident was so minor, the front wheel did not even need to be re-trued. (Id.) Aside from this minor accident, the bike did not sustain any damage of any kind between the rebuild in 2005 and November 19, 2007. (Id.) There is no evidence that indicates otherwise.
It does not help REI that after this accident, Monika took it REI for inspection and repair and REI didn't find any problems other then the flat tire. So for them to claim that the fork was damaged in the accident and needed replacing they would have to be negligent in their inspection of it.
|
|
apogee
climber
|
|
|
May 23, 2011 - 10:45pm PT
|
By any chance, R Wyna/gc/M Peasant/et. al., are you one of those former REI employees who left the company under unfortunate or embarassing circumstances?
|
|
madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
|
|
|
May 23, 2011 - 10:50pm PT
|
The only problem with the "smoking gun" is that the gun is in REI's hands. If she took the bike back to REI for inspection, and they signed off on it, claiming no apparent damage, then from a legal perspective, they were "the last one to see the fork alive."
I don't see how REI gets out of that post-accident inspection. But, this case has more twists and turns than a gopher snake on acid.
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!