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rrrADAM
Trad climber
LBMF
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Mar 14, 2011 - 06:47am PT
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For some more reliable info on the status of Fuku, as well as many details:
http://www.nei.org/newsandevents/information-on-the-japanese-earthquake-and-reactors-in-that-region/
I tried to explain much of this, including the difference between 'fuel damage' and 'meltdown', even the reaction between water and the zircalloy cladding on the fuel assembles/rods that creates hydrogen (which, when venter can explode), and causes the rapid degredation (trhough oxidation) of the cladding/tubes that hold the uranium pellets that make up the fuel rods, up to and including realeasing nasty radioisotopes (radioiodine, radionitrogen, cesium, etc), and can even leave the fuel pellets lying in the bottom of the reactor... But was shot down, mainly by 'klimmer' as 'a biased nuke worker'. Some want to live in and spread fear, telling everyone to get potassium iodiner pills here in the US... Or, pointing out where there is misunderstanding, misinformation, and/or misinterpretation (E.g., that Fuku 1 is a BWR of American design, by GE), yet even after that, people still overlook this, and state otherwise. Misunderstanding, misinformation, and/or misinterpretation, perpetuates incorrect speculation.
I inspect the nukes, that's my job. I enforce the Code of Federal Regulations (10 CFR 50, especially Appendix B), and ensure that any and all work done on safety systems is done IAW code and spec. I do this from a 3rd party perspective, as I report to nobody here at the nuke, not even the site VP. I am a federally protected employee (protected from HIRD [harassment, intimidation, retribution, demotion]), so I can do my job free from influence.
I also staff a position in my plant's Emergency Response Organization (ERO), in the Technical Support Center (TSC) that is staffed with Senior Reactor Operators, Nuclear Engineers, as well as engineers of various types... When everybody else is 'running away', those who staff the ERO are the ones running to the plant to respond. So, I have a very good idea what the people onsite are doing to manage the problem. And it is a big problem, don't get me wrong, but not as big or bad as many believe due to poor news, misinformation, and speculation.
There was a pretty good interview with a professor of nuclear engineering, from Georgia Tech on CNN... Try to watch that, as it was spot on. He even explains the zirconiumoxide reaction I was talking about. Bad thing is, they put him on hold to talk to 'Bill Nye the Science Guy' (WTF?!?!?).
This plant, is pretty close to the same as mine, and what you see behind the steel girders at the top of the reactor building is referred to as the 'refuel floor', and NOT really part of 'containment' (the picture shown is wrong in that respect)...
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The 6"-12" thick stainless steel clad vessel is intact (primary containment), as is the drywell (surrounds the vessel, secondary containment), as is the reactor building itself (sourrounds the drywell, another containment). "When we take credit for something as a 'containment', it means containg 'pressure' as well as contamination', and the thin sheet metal that surrounds the refuel floor does not qualify as a 'containment' structure. So, there are multiple layers to keep the 'bad stuff' in... This is what Chernobyl was lacking.
Here's a pic of our refuel floor from just a few days ago, as we are in a refuel outage...
Another view, shows the 'spent fuel pool' right (you can see the tops of the fuel bundles), and the top of the reactor vessel cavity (center left, vessel itself cannot be seen):
Re: Fuku, and the initial series of events...
From what I gather, before the earthquake hit the plant, the P waves set off the alert system, and the reactor scrammed BEFORE the S waves hit, which knocked out offsite power. That caused the EDGs to start, and take over supplying power, so they DID start and work as intended. BUT, an hour later the water from the tsunami was sufficient to flood the rooms where they are, overwhelming the pumps in those rooms. This caused them to stop. Have to keep water circulating to remove the heat, just like in your car.
As the water heats, it increases pressure, needing to be vented... When it is vented, if the water is not replaced, part of the core can become uncovered, resulting in fuel damage, up to and including partial melting even though that is highly unlikely... When the zircalloy oxidizes (severely damaging the fuel, and causing the release of lots of nasty stuff), it releases hydrogen, and when that is later vented, it can explode, and apparently did, many say as the result of the electric motor of a pump... That blew the building apart.
Water is water, as far as its ability to transfer heat, so sea water is just as good as demin for that, BUT, it certainly spells the end of that reactor.
The containment structures are containing all the really nasty stuff, as they are designed to do, and will most likely continue to do so, as long as they can manage to keep the fuel cool. In all likelyhood, 2-3 months from now, we will see video of newsreporters at the fence of this plant, and the other units will be running.
I will try to write more today, if I get a chance... We are in a refueling outage here at my plant, so I am pretty busy.
If you are curious, here's a pic of our 'pot' (Reactor Vessel) after we shuffled in new fuel a few years ago at a previous outage...
What you are looking at is the tops of the fuel bundles, and as we only refuel about half of the reactor, only the shiney ones are new fuel.
For a sense of scale, that is about 25' in diamter, so if it were lying on its side, you could drive a bus through it.
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rrrADAM
Trad climber
LBMF
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Mar 14, 2011 - 08:30am PT
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This quake is going to have a profound impact on global energy decisions for years to come. The nuclear energy industry had come a long way toward rehabilitating its safety reputation since 3-Mile and Chernobyl, but it now appears some or much of those gains in reputation were based on dimming memories and not true safety margins.
This will have a very profound influence in places like California or other geologically active locations. Japan is not some 3rd world country with a few foreign-trained technicians. These people knew and know what they are doing and believe in doing things right. If they can't keep an earthquake from destroying a reactor and spilling nuclear poison, WHO CAN?
DMT
D... As it stands, everything bad has been contained within the facility. There have been no releases that pose a risk to public health. Everything else, is a "what if?"
Newer buildings and bridges in seismic areas are designed to withstand huge earthquakes, and not catastrophically fail. Sure, they may be damaged to the point that they are unusable, but they are designed to not straight up fail causing loss of life... They have some luck with this, and are learning as events happen. Nukes are different [for the most part], as they are WAY over-engineered to contain bad stuff, in the worst case scenerio (I.e., LOCA*), and from what I gather, they have not had a LOCA, as that would require a breach in that system.
So, here we have units that are 40 years old, being damaged beyond repair, BUT, they have not been compromised to the point that it has caused damage to public health or the environment. You gotta admit, that thus far, that is the case, everything else s a "what if?", and that is fear based. TMI, and what's happening in Japan have shown that it can be contained, in the worst possible scenarios.
I will agree that the FEAR of the "what ifs?" that comes out of this, is a whole 'nother story. But the fact is, the system is designed such that, when all else fails, it is contained... And what they will be left with is a billion dollar paperweight, that requires some continued care, but it is still contained... TMI is still up and running, save the unit that had the partial meltdown, and people live right next to it. That one unit, IS a billion dollar paperweight, that requires some care, but it is contained.
Not like so many other disasters, at chemical plants, refineries, oil platforms, Chernobyl, etc... That are/were not contained, and have had a much larger, and longer lasting, effect.
The effects of this will most likely be 'fear based', and thus political. But they are still very real affects that will have an impact.
Yes, there are things to learn... Like not building them where, or in a manner, that they are succeptable to tsunamis, but they are built to withstand seismic events.
There is a HUGE difference between western designed nukes, and those of the old Soviet Union, where the went cheap, and safety cost a lot of money... It's why they cost billions to build. If you think about it, they went the same way with their space program in the 60's, and it killed a lot of people. The reality is, even though this is a serious event, a 40 year old design has thus far kept the bad stuff in. Newer designs, are safer in order of magnitude.
A different perspective is, even though the some really bad stuff happened, sume that was even not planned for or within the plant design, it STILL has kept the bad stuff contained... Which shows that, when all else fails, the design works to keep the bad stuff** in, and the public safe.
* Loss of Coolant Accident
** Just because there has been a release does not mean that the public is at risk, as it depends on what and how much. A typical coal plant releases WAY more ratiation to the environment than does a nuke, as there is radon in most coal.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Mar 14, 2011 - 10:20am PT
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In answer to Neebee-
Japan is a mountainous country and the only major rail lines and highways run up the east coast which has a few more flat spaces. Roads in the rest of Japan are typically narrow with no shoulders.To evacuate hundreds of thousands of people on mountain roads would be hard enough but many of those roads are now blocked by landslides and the ones that aren't are reserved for emergency vehicles.
Right now they are just trying to get 100,000 soldiers and other rescue workers in to get people out of the rubble who might still be alive, and to pick up dead bodies. They have only two more days before the weather goes below freezing at night.
Japan is a very crowded country. It is not easy to find space for thousands more on short notice. Also, Japanese have a much stronger identification with place than Americans do. Their families have lived in that area for centuries and their ancestors are buried there. It's a different mentality.
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rrrADAM
Trad climber
LBMF
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Mar 14, 2011 - 11:33am PT
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I have hear reports that the core of Fuku 2 was fully exposed for a time... This has yet to be verified, and if so, is a big deal, as significant fuel damage will happen quickly! They need to keep the fuel covered with water.
But, once the control rods are in as is the case, fission stops, so that source of heat is gone. However, decay heat still needs to be removed, and this is why it needs to have water circulating in the vessel.
As I said days ago, they need to get power to the pumps designed to do this... The RHR (Residual Heat Removel) system can pump 10's of thousands of gallons per minute, and there are two redundant systems for this. Core Spray and HPCI (High Pressure Core Injection) can both supply thousands of gallons per minute each, but they all need power.
They have to get power.
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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Mar 14, 2011 - 11:45am PT
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Split wood , not atoms!
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WBraun
climber
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Mar 14, 2011 - 11:48am PT
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rrrADAM
Thanks for all the nice informative posts.
Clearly helps explain what's going on to the layman.
The media should hire you .....
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Mar 14, 2011 - 11:48am PT
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Kadena Air Base in Okinawa sent 50 Civil Engineers up north to help with getting the electrical power going again. After that, roads and bridges.
The U.S. Navy is helicoptering in food and water as well as providing transportation to the Japanese Self Defense Force rescuers.
We are also flying reconnaisance flights up and down the coast hoping to find more people clinging to debris floating in the ocean.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Mar 14, 2011 - 11:56am PT
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The island is now 13 feet closer to the US!
It's a plot to sneak up on Pearl Harbor!!!
Back to seriousness, rrrAdam's diagram and a little more research on BWRs. They could still have core containment on #3.
The explosion on #1 looked exactly like what you'd expect if there was a hydrogen explosion in that upper bay with the crane.
The second explosion starts with a sideways flash lower in the building and includes lots of big shrapnel. It could have been a hydrogen explosion in the turbine room. If it was a PWR there's not much in the containment building other than the core and the steam generators. That's what I though I was seeing flying. Could have been turbine and generator parts. A burning generator would explain all the black smoke as well.
Hope that's what happened, but the people who know have their hands full and almost all of what's on the media is uninformed speculation at best and down right misinformation (both ways) by those with agendas at worst.
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rrrADAM
Trad climber
LBMF
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Mar 14, 2011 - 12:25pm PT
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I have hear reports that the core of Fuku 2 was fully exposed for a time...
they have confirmed it was.
VERIFIED where? Source?
I have even heard this attributed to operators at the plant, but not verified.
That said, even if the fuel has been exposed, it is certainly sustained substantial damage, and even more when water was put on it through thermal shock alone. BUT, the vessels of all 3 units are still intact and not breached, as far as I know... If they are worried about, and are venting pressure, that means there is no breach in the vessel or the systems that directly go to it (E.g., feedwater, steam, emergency injections), as if it were breached, it would rapidly lose pressure.
Think of tyring to keep pressure in a tire that has a hole in it... It doesn't hold pressure.
All of them, to different degress, have suffered a loss of inventory (collant in the vessel), and this can happen in many different ways other than a breach in the system... Most likely, it flashes to steam and is vented to releave pressure (water expands ~1600 times in volume when it turns to steam, it's why they use steam to turn turbines), thus that inventory needs to be replaced, even if with sea water.
Normally, in a LOCA, after the demin water reserve is exausted, water is taken from the torus (see picture above) and pumped into the reactor. Even if there is a major breach of the vessel, it all goes down to the torus, where it is recirculated back in. If the vessel reaches a certain pressure, safety reliefs valves (11 of them at my plant) lift and vent to the torus just under the waterline... Like a big bong.
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rrrADAM
Trad climber
LBMF
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Mar 14, 2011 - 12:28pm PT
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None of the reactors at Fuku are PWRs, they are all BWRs.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Mar 14, 2011 - 12:34pm PT
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Official: Rods likely melting in Japanese reactors
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x4769999
http://www.forbes.com/feeds/ap/2011/03/14/general-as-japan-earthquake-nuclear-crisis_8354983.html
Source: AP
TOKYO — Japanese officials say the nuclear fuel rods appear to be melting inside all three of the most troubled nuclear reactors.
Chief Cabinet Secretary Yukio Edano said Monday: "Although we cannot directly check it, it's highly likely happening."
Some experts would consider that a partial meltdown of the reactor. Others, though, reserve that term for times when nuclear fuel melts through a reactor's innermost chamber but not through the outer containment shell.
It is much worse than we think.
On NPR this morning driving to work they talked about one of our Navy ships turning back due to radiation levels being too high 100 miles out at sea to the West of the reactor as it approached the Japanese coast.
Perhaps they will try to come in from a different direction.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Mar 14, 2011 - 12:37pm PT
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None of the reactors at Fuku are PWRs, they are all BWRs.
Yes, my comments back a few pages were based thinking that the construction was similar to a PWR. If that were the case there wouldn't be much other than the core or a steam generator that could produce a blast like happened at #3.
Understanding now how these things are built, the blast didn't necessarily come from the core.
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rrrADAM
Trad climber
LBMF
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Mar 14, 2011 - 12:40pm PT
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On NPR this morning driving to work they talked about one of our Navy ships turning back due to radiation levels being too high 100 miles out at sea to the West of the reactor as it approached the Japanese coast. I would like to know the details of this, as people often confuse radiation (the energy) with contamination (radioactive stuff where we don't want it)... Point being, if radiation (the energy) is detected 100 miles from the plant, then the people at the plant would all be long dead by now. Think of it this way... Contamination is like dog-sh|t, and radiation is the smell coming from it. If the dog-poo is kept in a bag (contained), no biggie, right?
What is more likely, is what they detected was elevated levels above background due to radioisotopes released being blown that way. What MUST be understood (but often isn't) is that the sensitivity of some radiation detection instruments is so sensitive that it will pick up even the most minute change, even if it is FAR below anything that would be cause for concern.
BUT, people hear 'exposed to radiation' and flip out. For people like that, you may wish to get rid of your smoke detectors as they have amerisium in them, and are radioactive.
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Brandon-
climber
Done With Tobacco
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Mar 14, 2011 - 01:09pm PT
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AC, this is about a grievous event, let's keep politics out of it man.
If you want, post that to my Glen Beck thread.
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rrrADAM
Trad climber
LBMF
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Mar 14, 2011 - 01:10pm PT
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This in a company newsletter...
When Neighbors Ask: Progress Energy’s response to Fukushima emergency
3/14/2011
The earthquake and tsunami in Japan have created significant issues for some of that country’s nuclear plants. Media coverage has been significant, and there have been numerous reports about possible similarities between the Japanese plants and U.S. nuclear power plants. Customers, neighbors and others are likely to have questions about our plants’ safety.
The following points are intended to help employees in those conversations.
In Brief
Our thoughts and prayers are with the people of Japan. We are working with the Nuclear Regulatory Commission to provide technical assistance as the situation evolves. Due to differences in design and geological characteristics in our region, the issues in Japan raise no specific concerns for our nuclear plants. But we will continue to learn from the events and incorporate any lessons learned to make our plants even safer.
Key Points
-Our thoughts and prayers are with the people of Japan as they deal with the aftermath of this natural catastrophe of historic proportions. We encourage the aid and support to those relief agencies providing direct assistance.
-Our first priority has been to work with the U.S. nuclear industry to provide any immediate technical assistance to the evolving situation at the nuclear plants within Fukushima, Japan. The Institute of Nuclear Power Operations (INPO) in conjunction with the World Association of Nuclear Operators (WANO) has coordinated this support.
-The probability of a disaster of the magnitude and nature of what occurred Japan is highly unlikely in the areas Progress Energy serves due to the geology of the states in which we operate. We are monitoring the situation in Japan through international nuclear agencies. While we do expect to learn from the events, there is no information from the situation in Japan that raises concern for the continued safe operation of our nuclear plants.
-From what we know today, the complications at the nuclear plants in Fukushima center around the loss of all electrical power as a direct result of the powerful earthquake and devastating tsunami. Our plants’ emergency electrical supplies are designed and built to withstand the impacts of all historical natural disasters for our area, such as hurricanes, tornados, earthquakes and flooding (including storm surges at our coastal plants). Additionally, following the events of Sept. 11, 2001, we have incorporated significant additional emergency criteria into our planning. As a result, all our plants have procedures, training, and mobile emergency pumps with independent electrical generators for power.
-This provides the capability to deal with events that might go beyond the recorded history for our region.
-The explosions at Fukushima I-1 have been reported as a result of hydrogen being vented from the reactor vessel. All U.S. plants have vent systems to prevent such a hydrogen explosion.
-Sharing information and learning from all events and experiences around the world is a cornerstone of the U.S. nuclear industry. Under strict oversight from the Nuclear Regulatory Commission, U.S. nuclear operators make continuous design, procedure and training changes to incorporate lessons learned from other plants.
-Although our plants have differences in the design and increased capability to deal with this type of disaster, we will be diligent to look for new lessons that will make us even safer in the future.
While watered down, it is factually correct.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Mar 14, 2011 - 01:11pm PT
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Radioactive contamination from the Cesium and Iodide from the leaking reactor can and will be carried by the wind. You can't control the direction of the wind. The ship motored into an area down wind of the reactors.
Having KI on hand in our emergency preparation kits at our homes is a very good thing. Do you disagree? Not because of this disaster so much, but it is a wake-up call. An absolutely vivid reminder. I ordered some to put into our Emergency Home Preparness kit for the family. Good thing to have. San Onofre isn't so far away, and San Diego must be on some terrorist hit list somewhere since we are the Pacific Fleet home for the Navy. I know for sure San Diego has a great number of nuke warheads stored and on the ready.
This natural disaster and now man-made disaster is not endearing Nuclear Fission Reactors to anyone. We can not control the possible unpredictable massive forces of Nature. This disaster/accident is screaming this loud and clear.
I for one hear it loud and clear. Do not use Nuclear Fission Reactors. Perhaps for research purposes, space-probes, etc. but it is just too dangerous for Earth based power generation, and the storage issue is a nightmare that does not go away. We need clean renewable energy resources. No one died from Solar, Wind, Geothermal, and other non-lethal energy production methods, and neither do these clean renewable energy resources have a half-life of 4.5 billion years that we have to worry about.
Sometimes in takes "Mother Nature" to wake us up.
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rrrADAM
Trad climber
LBMF
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Mar 14, 2011 - 01:14pm PT
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You just cannot admit that you were wrong, can you? That what you posted was misleading. But, what's worse, is that even when corrected, you continue to believe it, and spread it as fact.
Ever mess with a lantern mantle? If so, then you got contaminated, as most of them have strontium in them.
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Brandon-
climber
Done With Tobacco
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Mar 14, 2011 - 01:20pm PT
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Adam, I appreciate your information on the subject, it has been hugely helpful for us laypersons to understand what's happening.
My only question is this; Is chance not too great a variable to effectively quantify? It's the chance of a similar catastrophe, with different causes, that renders this technology inherently dangerous. The stacking of unlikely events in unpredictable sequence can render the best laid plans to waste.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Mar 14, 2011 - 01:37pm PT
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rrradam,
I have many radioactive sources that I use for class, demos, and experiments, and to look at cloud chamber vapor trails from the radioactive emissions, ie the study of nuclear physics: Fiesta Ware, smokedectors, Coleman Lantern mantles, radioactive minerals, even Uranium ore from a mine in CO. We have a set of very good Civil Defense geigercounters for our physics staff.
The point is I store them safely, locked up, and away from students and staff when not in use. I never handle them directly but only through plastic so as not to get any residue on my hands. Even then I thoroughly wash my hands afterwards. No students ever handle them. And they are used at a distance. I don't breath it, eat it, or drink it. Nor do I put these sources under my pillow at night and sleep with them. They are stored locked away safely behind the walls of a storage room that no students are allowed in. Exposure is minimal. I'm not internalizing any of it and neither are students.
I have no fear of low-dose radioactive sources when they are handled properly.
When it is airborne in the atmosphere, you can not do any of the things I just mentioned as a safety precaution. Once it is inside your body, that is when the damage is done. That is the serious risk here and you know it. That is exactly why the US Navy ship moved out of the area when they encountered it. Outside the body exposure is one thing. Not a big deal for low doses. Inside the body exposure is a whole different dangerous matter.
Stop giving the industry BS. I know what I'm talking about and you know it. Why the heck did I take all those classes/PD with General Atomic over the years?
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