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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Language is indeed a MAJOR issue. New terminology, new vocabulary, is sorely needed. One without all the ol' time religious slant.
When it eventually arrives, and I believe it will, I hope those of you who are truly interested in these subjects don't ridicule it (or criticize it too harshly) straight away, taking into account our species' inherent biases against new words, also new ways of thinking.
We've grown accustomed already to new language concerning medicine, engineering, computers, internet and electronics. We'll eventually have a new way of talking in regard to new practices of living, models based on these, and we'll eventually grow accustomed to them also, I think.
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Crodog
Social climber
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Antisocial Personality Disorder
The Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders fourth edition, DSM IV-TR = 301.7, a widely used manual for diagnosing mental disorders, defines antisocial personality disorder (in Axis II Cluster B) as:[1]
There is a pervasive pattern of disregard for and violation of the rights of others occurring for as long as either childhood, or in the case of many who are influenced by environmental factors, around age 15, as indicated by three (or more) of the following:
1.failure to conform to social norms with respect to lawful behaviors as indicated by repeatedly performing acts that are grounds for arrest;
2.deceitfulness, as indicated by repeatedly lying, use of aliases, or conning others for personal profit or pleasure;
3.impulsivity or failure to plan ahead;
4.irritability and aggressiveness, as indicated by repeated physical fights or assaults;
5.reckless disregard for safety of self or others;
6.consistent irresponsibility, as indicated by repeated failure to sustain consistent work behavior or honor financial obligations;
7.lack of remorse, as indicated by being indifferent to or rationalizing having hurt, mistreated, or stolen from another;
8.promiscuity;
9.having shallow or seemingly nonexistent feelings.
New evidence points to the fact that children often develop Antisocial Personality Disorder as a cause of their environment, as well as their genetic line. The individual does not need to meet a certain age requirement in order to be diagnosed with this disorder.
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rrrADAM
Trad climber
LBMF
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Good point, HFCS... To many, "theory" means wild assed guess, and is synonymous with speculation.
But in science, it has an entirely different meaning... It is a very precise word.
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rrrADAM
Trad climber
LBMF
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theory does mean speculation.
You just use a very narrow version of the word.
Skip
Here, enlighten yourself:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theory
Then reread what I said about the word as used in science [I.e., qualifier].
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rrrADAM
Trad climber
LBMF
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I just read what you posted from wikipedia. No, you didn't... As you said, you read the very first sentence.
Keep reading... As it's what the GREAT BULK of the entry is about.
C'mon... You can do it... As I said, "enlighten yourself"... LEARN SOMETHING.
Then, just to see if you can actually comprehend what you read, tell me...
How is the word used in science? Which, again, is what I said.
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Crodog
Social climber
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I've got a theory about skipt
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Skip- I venture to guess you're about as informed on this subject as you were on the electrical battery shock thread. So why not move on? You know, Pate might've been a fan of yours - besides an interest in nuns - that, too, distinguished us.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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A couple of other subjects - both of them sorta "hairy" - that could be taken into account in the development of a model of evil on an ecological basis are (1) game theory (basis for evolution selecting for cheaters, defectors, deceivers) and (2) tribalism (not only tribal mentality but tribal dynamics involving partisan rivalry, us vs. them). The good news is that here at the start of the 21st we know a lot more about these subject areas than ever before.
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Thank you, Crodog. -As timely as ever.
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EDIT Skipt- my apologies, feel free to contribute.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Also, there is a lot of deception in animal ecologies. Expert knowledge systems in these areas would also be a useful stepping stone, I think, to a modern scientific model of evil that operated on an ecological basis.
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EDIT Yeah, I took it away because it didn't contribute, because it was immature, off topic, and I don't want to engage in mindless tit for tat (btw, a game theory concept) that characterizes so many threads.
EDIT EDIT Beat you to it. Read again! LOL.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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don't know what all the bruhaha is about...
the good British professors of physics (e.g. Rutherford) would bombast regarding the thoughts of the local theorists: "perhaps that is an interesting speculation"
that is what theory is... once it is shown consistent with experiment, it becomes even more interesting...
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rrrADAM
Trad climber
LBMF
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The definition of tribalism is demonstrated in spades when someone I am backing up (albeit in a different way) takes it as some type of argument against him.
It is exactly why I stated it the way I did ... Hook.
The taco science tribe would do well to read your definition.
Skip Touche'
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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It's great that Jean Valjean was brought up. Because the frosting on the cake to any new scientific model of evil would be narratives - a system of narratives - like Les Miserables - congruent with it.
Perhaps some starter definitions:
good - that which promotes life
evil - that which defeats life
Since they're bridge words to religion, pop culture and history, by design, they're necessarily general in definition.
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So right away, we can see that what is evil would be a function of perspective, point of view. In this case and others, point of view being that of an individual, a group, a tribe or nation, a species (in relation to another).
And this of course would point the way to the view that morality (good and evil) is not absolute. -Which is a HUGE BREAK from the traditional view as advanced through the Abrahamic religious model over the millenia.
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So with any acceptance of a modern scientific model of evil, it seems, comes the challenge of dealing with a model that doesn't feature any "absolute" framework of absolute evil. Narratives, follow-up narratives, could deal with this "challenge" also.
EDIT 12:35p Jean Valjean would not be evil for wanting to feed his family. From his point of view.
Under the science model of evil so far, evil then would have to have a frame of reference, e.g., Valjean or Javert, for instance, to be meaningful.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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you're assuming, ed, that paranormal research has been as fully funded and prosperous as the "harder" sciences and should therefore be "moving forward". as i've mentioned, it's a real victim of the so-called science wars, and research nowadays is not nearly so daring as that defined by thelma moss.
your mistake is your failure to differentiate. you lump a whole realm of data and experience into a category which you are impatient to disqualify. LEB's fruitless cat experience somehow disproves the existence of all ghosts. the niceties of statistics in laboratory-controlled ESP experiments somehow refute a mind-blowing experience such as karl's. yours is an obvious and familiar hostility.
on the other hand, the engagement of the credibly paranormal by science offers the opportunity to progress in the very realm we spend so much time discussing here. we live in a society where it's okay to believe all the remote paranormalities of jesus, but you're a kook if you think you saw a ghost yesterday. attention to the paranormal actually offers a more comforting prospect of the afterlife which would put a lot of fire-and-brimstone as#@&%es out of business. there are vested interests at stake.
yes, peter atkins, huff, but it's not for sale. i hear the man is an atheist, but he nevertheless seems to believe in hell.
i hadn't heard that we moved on from the paranormal after the 70s and 80s, and i managed to have quite an introduction to it in the 90s. a friend of mine had some just last year. how out of step!
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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good - that which promotes life
evil - that which defeats life
So, from the perspective of a penguine, a leopard seal would be evil, an evil beast.
Also, getting killed by lightning or a falling tree would be an evil occurrence.
-Under above definitions, that is, were they included as "bridge" words (to history, religion, pop culture, etc.) in the vocabulary of any scientific model of evil.
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So far the "pressures" we've discussed that are innately "set against us" are (1) entropic pressure and (2) competitive predatory pressure and (3) elliptic pressure. That's a lot of pressure.
The more pressure, the more potential for "dystropy" - in other words, the more potential for things to turn out bad.
Heck, we might as well call these "dystropic pressures" and add this term to our model's vocabulary. Note they all have a natural basis. No fallen angels or Devil required.
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rrrADAM
Trad climber
LBMF
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Tony... Paranormal research and practicioners have LOADS of wealthy [duped] partons who pour money into it, always has. And, there are even a couple series on some of the cable channels devoted to just this. So don't play the "no money, no interest" card.
Fact is... After well over 100 years not one iota of anything with substance has come to light. If Houdini could, he'd get in touch with us... He promised he would, remember?
The CIA and the Russians both spent quite a bit. How much money should one throw at this, until they stop? How much would need to be spent, until YOU are convinced it is a waste of money? Perhaps the same amount of money that 'should be spent' investigating the "real cause" of 9/11?
BUT... I'd really like to know how those televangelists can read the minds and woes of the people in the audience, then cure them. Now that's some practical "psychic" stuff... I've seen it myself! Right on live TV! Explain that!
Now, Dowsing! That's real... How about let's see some serious national funding for the study of dowsing rods. People have used those for centuries, so it MUST be working. Wait!!! That's been funded and studied in depth... Then we need MORE FUNDING!!! Because I am sure it works, therefore we need to fund it till it's proven that it works!
Sorry to sound so condescending and sarcastic (read: be an ass), but c'mon man... How much should be spent on it, brutha? Seriously? Is your stance, "fund it till it's proven"?
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rrrADAM
Trad climber
LBMF
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Nice CD...
Got afterlife?
Life after death is the same as life before birth.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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re: (1) personification of evil (2) Hawking model of evil
So I think our modern scientific model of evil (that we are developing right here at the Taco, yay) on an ecological basis would benefit from a personification. Just as the Abrahamic religious model benefits from Satan. The difference is, everyone embracing the modern scientific one knows it's just that, a personification, nothing more.
So I nominate... Dinostrophes. (From the Greek meaning terrible to turn. Refer to dinosaur. Also apostrophe for etymology, morphemes.) Then we're empowered all the more (a) to think and express ourselves in terms of the Satanic model (of the Pope) or the Dinostrophic model (of science, of Hawking); and (b) to develop narratives (stories) on the scientific model that promote it.
So I think we're done now. We've done it. Religion has Satan to scapegoat. Our Taco science club has Dinostrophes to scapegoat. Satan represents evil in supernaturalist terms; Dinostrophes represents evil in natural terms. Big difference. At least this is a starting point. That the science community didn't get around to. (Yet.)
I think this would make Hawking proud. Job well done!
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"Dinostrophes made me do it!"
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P.S. Right now, Dinostrophes doesn't get even one hit when you google it. But in a few days it will. Under this site. So that will be proof the dinostrophic model (cf: Satanic model) had its roots right here. How cool is that!
Dinostrophes (di nahs' truh feez) personification of evil in the modern scientific model of dystropy (why bad things happen).
Off to read The Moral Landscape now, by Sam Harris.
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