9/11 belief, mythology, and the unknowable (OT)

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atchafalaya

climber
Babylon
Jul 1, 2010 - 07:38pm PT
On second thought, maybe I would support dividing the forum.

One section for climbing, drinking, politics, etc., and another area for speculation on topics by people clearly unqualified to address the subject matter (i.e., 9/11 conspiracies, wolf re-introduction, climbing accident reports...).
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Jul 1, 2010 - 07:46pm PT


Marvin Sirbu, professor of engineering and public policy at Carnegie Mellon University said on September 14, 2001, that "The fact of the matter is that cell phones can work in almost all phases of a commercial flight


man RJ, with your knowledge being far greater than the experts it must be a crime that you can't find meaningful employment.
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Jul 1, 2010 - 07:50pm PT

airplane wreckage on the pentagon lawn. according to RJ little ferries spread this out.

According to Mete Sozen, a professor of structural engineering at Purdue University, a crashing jet doesn't punch a cartoon-like outline of itself into a reinforced concrete building. When Flight 77 hit the Pentagon, one wing hit the ground and the other was sheared off by the Pentagon's load-bearing columns.[83] According to ArchitectureWeek, the reason the Pentagon took relatively little damage from the impact was because Wedge One had recently been renovated.[86] (This was part of a renovation program which had been begun in the eighties, and Wedge One was the first of five to be renovated.[87])

Airplane debris including Flight 77's black boxes,[88] the nose cone, landing gear,[89] an airplane tire,[90] the fuselage,[citation needed] and an intact cockpit seat[91] were observed at the crash site. The remains of passengers from Flight 77 were found at the Pentagon crash site and their identities confirmed by DNA analysis.[92] Many eyewitnesses saw the plane strike the Pentagon. Further, Flight 77 passengers made phone calls reporting that their airplane had been hijacked. For example, passenger Renee May called her mother to tell her that the plane had been hijacked and that the passengers had been herded to the back of the plane. Another passenger named Barbara Olson called her husband (U.S. Solicitor General Theodore Olson) and said that the flight had been hijacked, and that the hijackers had knives and box cutters.[5][83][93]
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Jul 1, 2010 - 07:52pm PT

Criticism of the reports published by NIST on the destruction of the World Trade Center buildings plays a central role in theories about an alleged controlled demolition. The picture shows the simulated exterior buckling of 7 WTC during the collapse.
WBraun

climber
Jul 1, 2010 - 07:53pm PT
Hawkeye

simulated is the key word
WBraun

climber
Jul 1, 2010 - 07:54pm PT
Madeline Sweeney started her call at 6:27 about the so called hijacking.

The plane had not taken off until 7:59

What am I missing here?

Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Jul 1, 2010 - 07:57pm PT
werner,


are you trying to tell me that UIAA "simulated" lead falls on ropes are total BS and meaningless?

Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Jul 1, 2010 - 07:59pm PT
RJ, i have experts saying it is possible and then i have an internet windbag saying it aint so.
WBraun

climber
Jul 1, 2010 - 07:59pm PT
I'm not trying to say anything.

I'm asking a simple question since I don't know what to make of these strange time lines.

WBraun

climber
Jul 1, 2010 - 08:08pm PT
By the way Hawkeye

There have been companies that went under because they completely relied on their computer simulations and never checked their real world data from their engineers.
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Jul 1, 2010 - 08:09pm PT
EDITED out another compliment to RJ

back on track, in any event reconstruction there are always things that are not easily proven, identifed etc. take an investigation and event like 911 and of course there will be discrepancies. you ought to be really worried if it were totally airtight.

EDITED out another compliment to RJ
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Jul 1, 2010 - 08:11pm PT
werner, i am sure that you are correct. as a manager with two engineering degrees i constantly face this on very complex systems. it also does not take a compex model to screw it up. i see engineers screw up simple stuff all the time.
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Jul 1, 2010 - 08:16pm PT
here werner from NIST faq's.

Why did NIST not consider a “controlled demolition” hypothesis with matching computer modeling and explanation as it did for the “pancake theory” hypothesis? A key critique of NIST’s work lies in the complete lack of analysis supporting a “progressive collapse” after the point of collapse initiation and the lack of consideration given to a controlled demolition hypothesis.

NIST conducted an extremely thorough three-year investigation into what caused the WTC towers to collapse, as explained in NIST’s dedicated Web site, http://wtc.nist.gov. This included consideration of a number of hypotheses for the collapses of the towers.

Some 200 technical experts—including about 85 career NIST experts and 125 leading experts from the private sector and academia—reviewed tens of thousands of documents, interviewed more than 1,000 people, reviewed 7,000 segments of video footage and 7,000 photographs, analyzed 236 pieces of steel from the wreckage, performed laboratory tests and sophisticated computer simulations of the sequence of events that occurred from the moment the aircraft struck the towers until they began to collapse.

Based on this comprehensive investigation, NIST concluded that the WTC towers collapsed because: (1) the impact of the planes severed and damaged support columns, dislodged fireproofing insulation coating the steel floor trusses and steel columns, and widely dispersed jet fuel over multiple floors; and (2) the subsequent unusually large jet-fuel ignited multi-floor fires (which reached temperatures as high as 1,000 degrees Celsius) significantly weakened the floors and columns with dislodged fireproofing to the point where floors sagged and pulled inward on the perimeter columns. This led to the inward bowing of the perimeter columns and failure of the south face of WTC 1 and the east face of WTC 2, initiating the collapse of each of the towers. Both photographic and video evidence—as well as accounts from the New York Police Department aviation unit during a half-hour period prior to collapse—support this sequence for each tower.

NIST’s findings do not support the “pancake theory” of collapse, which is premised on a progressive failure of the floor systems in the WTC towers (the composite floor system—that connected the core columns and the perimeter columns—consisted of a grid of steel “trusses” integrated with a concrete slab; see diagram below). Instead, the NIST investigation showed conclusively that the failure of the inwardly bowed perimeter columns initiated collapse and that the occurrence of this inward bowing required the sagging floors to remain connected to the columns and pull the columns inwards. Thus, the floors did not fail progressively to cause a pancaking phenomenon.



Diagram of Composite WTC Floor System

NIST’s findings also do not support the “controlled demolition” theory since there is conclusive evidence that:

the collapse was initiated in the impact and fire floors of the WTC towers and nowhere else, and;

the time it took for the collapse to initiate (56 minutes for WTC 2 and 102 minutes for WTC 1) was dictated by (1) the extent of damage caused by the aircraft impact, and (2) the time it took for the fires to reach critical locations and weaken the structure to the point that the towers could not resist the tremendous energy released by the downward movement of the massive top section of the building at and above the fire and impact floors.

Video evidence also showed unambiguously that the collapse progressed from the top to the bottom, and there was no evidence (collected by NIST, or by the New York Police Department, the Port Authority Police Department or the Fire Department of New York) of any blast or explosions in the region below the impact and fire floors as the top building sections (including and above the 98th floor in WTC 1 and the 82nd floor in WTC 2) began their downward movement upon collapse initiation.

In summary, NIST found no corroborating evidence for alternative hypotheses suggesting that the WTC towers were brought down by controlled demolition using explosives planted prior to Sept. 11, 2001. NIST also did not find any evidence that missiles were fired at or hit the towers. Instead, photographs and videos from several angles clearly show that the collapse initiated at the fire and impact floors and that the collapse progressed from the initiating floors downward until the dust clouds obscured the view.

werner its pretty simple. if my a$$ needed rescue on el cap i would want an expert like you there and not some internet windbag who read a book on SAR. likewise, i would rather believe NIST experts than some dude who built a latrine.

Some 200 technical experts—including about 85 career NIST experts and 125 leading experts from the private sector and academia—reviewed tens of thousands of documents, interviewed more than 1,000 people, reviewed 7,000 segments of video footage and 7,000 photographs, analyzed 236 pieces of steel from the wreckage, performed laboratory tests and sophisticated computer simulations of the sequence of events that occurred from the moment the aircraft struck the towers until they began to collapse.
Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Jul 1, 2010 - 08:19pm PT
you've got old news again, hawkeye. that piece in the foreground has been suspect for quite some time. there's enough left of the airline logo to establish--we suspect quite carefully--the identity of the airline and the plane allegedly involved. you will notice that the lawn in the background is absolutely intact. this debris apparently fluttered down on top of it. yea, fairies--what else could it have been?

rox, you a workhorse.

wow--healyje's back. and i thought he just started this to get rid of us.

as i posted above, the reports made to the public on 9/11 said they were cellphone calls, not airphone. these reports were made officially, and we would assume the telephone company or the airline in charge would be able to distinguish that. it's also much more credible for the official story that they be cellphones--you can picture people cowering in corners trying to communicate as these monsters with utility knives try to keep it all under control. use of an airphone, attached to a seat and much more conspicuous, is also far less credible. but the big thing is that it has already been challenged and not equivocated.

cellphones are also more old 9/11 news. it's all been ratched up to a new level. they are now trying to revise the building code to accommodate the story that steel frame structures are so vulnerable. apparently they want to sheathe everything in concrete, and i'll bet there won't be many new skyscrapers over 50 stories and they'll be expensive as hell. we all have to do our part to tailor the emperor's new clothes.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Jul 1, 2010 - 08:21pm PT
Werner,
it wasn't name calling it was a serious question;

aren't you a part of that machine?

and if so why






EDIT; calling that lying thieving cripple-macing Lobo names is OK though
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Jul 1, 2010 - 08:23pm PT
http://wtc.nist.gov/pubs/factsheets/faqs_8_2006.htm

sorry, here is the source. if you conspirists reads this with an open mind perhaps some light bulbs will go off.
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Jul 1, 2010 - 08:24pm PT
tony,

i would take OLD supported facts over fresh wind any day....
WBraun

climber
Jul 1, 2010 - 08:29pm PT
In a famous book by Antoine de Saint Exupery, a little prince from another planet asks the narrator to draw a sheep. After several unsatisfactory attempts, the narrator simply draws a box and tells the little prince that the sheep is in the box. The little prince then exclaims -- "That is exactly the way I wanted it!"

Just so, the Bush Administration asked its scientists at the National Institute of Standards and Technology (NIST) for an explanation as to what happened at the World Trade Center (WTC) on 9/11. In response to this request, NIST drew up a series of fanciful stories over a period of years, each story differing from the previous one. Finally, after seven long years, NIST published its last story for WTC 7 by simply saying, in effect: "The explanation is in our computer."
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Jul 1, 2010 - 08:32pm PT
good fairly tale werner.

having used some of the fire and structural analyses from the 911 reports on other projects i can assure you that not all of it is a fairly tale.

but the great thing about america is that you can believe what you want and nobody is forcing you to be confused by the facts. still wondering what your answer to Rons questoin is with regards to working for the evil empire....
Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Jul 1, 2010 - 08:36pm PT
your building 7 fantasy falls apart when you watch building 7 coming down. with your own two eyes--unless you happen to be largo, or course--you can see that there is none of this chubby checker twisting going on. you'll find the video of it posted in this thread by klimmer, about 2/5 of the way along.

that NIST report, btw, is a complete crock, speculating that a single weakness in a single post within this grid-framed building caused its neighbors to buckle and bring the whole thing down like a house of cards. this little old steel post--number 27 or something like that, it's so important to give a number because that in itself is all the proof half the people need--was buried in the exact crucial vulnerable spot inside building 7. NIST is so sure of this. but for six years the government story--a hot potato passed to NIST by two other agencies--was "we don't know why building 7 came down".

buildings that crumple and fold in on themselves from some mysterious internal weakness still do it much slower than the 8 seconds or so which was recorded by someone's camera. the twin towers had a revolutionary structure for their day, but building 7 was just a standard, garden variety boxlike 47-story skyscraper, built on the tried-and-true three-dimensional grid of girders. they just flat-out don't come down that fast, no matter what might be going on inside.

there has been some speculation that building 7 was suppose to have been hit by a plane, perhaps the one associated with shanksville. i say "associated" because when you look at that one, it's more of the same--nothing is normal.

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