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apogee
climber
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Mar 23, 2010 - 02:34am PT
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About PNHP
Physicians for a National Health Program is a single issue organization advocating a universal, comprehensive single-payer national health program. PNHP has more than 17,000 members and chapters across the United States.
http://www.pnhp.org/about/about-pnhp
So, tarek, which side of the fence are you really on?
The PNHP is a 'single issue organization advocating for a single payer system''....yep, I'm all about that. How about you?
Are you an uncompromising idealist who has an all-or-nothing view of this issue? If so, I respect your idealism. Really.
Or are you an anti-HR Repug who is now seeking anything they can find to rub in the noses of the Party that just handed you your arse on a silver platter?
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GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
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Mar 23, 2010 - 02:37am PT
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He really did die of aids and it makes me sad. So i deleted it because of my sadness.
thanks for bringing it up. Extra sad now.
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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Mar 23, 2010 - 02:46am PT
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again, u brought it up pal
edit-
and fwiw, your tone is unconvincing, and in this context, this statemen:
Its OK, I'll delete it off my hard drive. But what will you do with your copy?
hardly sounds like something a person so personally familiar with AIDS patients posts online...
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
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Mar 23, 2010 - 02:50am PT
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tarek- I'm neither a hack nor a healthcare lobbyist. This is but a piece of the puzzle as I've been posting all along. People keep saying this doesn't address cost but it actually does. The medicare task force provision in the bill allows the President to create a task force that can cut medicare reimbursement rates based on what the best evidence is at the time. Reimbursement is the root of the problem, not an inherently for-profit system. Single-payer would be great in my opinion but it's not currently a foreseeable possibility. Capitated reimbursement is.
"Millions of middle-income people will be pressured to buy commercial health insurance policies costing up to 9.5 percent of their income but covering an average of only 70 percent of their medical expenses, potentially leaving them vulnerable to financial ruin if they become seriously ill. Many will find such policies too expensive to afford or, if they do buy them, too expensive to use because of the high co-pays and deductibles."
That statement may be true (I don't know the numbers) but it's also misleading. It implies that what we have now is better....and it isn't. I realize that a national health care plan is appealing but America just isn't there yet.
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tarek
climber
berkeley
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Mar 23, 2010 - 02:55am PT
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apogee, it would take quite a Republican to quote PNHP. Yeah the Repubs lost big...but that's no reason to celebrate this terrible bill. Most of the people celebrating its passage here on ST must not have had many dealings with health insurance companies. They ran the show on this process from day one and played both sides, fully owning Obama despite his Orwellian doubletalk against the industry in public. His behavior was analogous to that of a preacher denouncing sodomy by day, but taking it in the behind every night.
Being for a single-payer system is hardly idealism. Heck, even the CA State legislature passed it (Arnold vetoed). It's really the only system that makes sense financially, as long as it systematically spreads best practices (see Atul Gawande's New Yorker article on this, which Obama reportedly read) and also emphasized prevention.
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WBraun
climber
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Mar 23, 2010 - 02:58am PT
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This whole thing proves once again that the material body is the source of all misery and the house of pain ...........
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apogee
climber
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Mar 23, 2010 - 02:59am PT
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"Millions of middle-income people will be pressured to buy commercial health insurance policies costing up to 9.5 percent of their income but covering an average of only 70 percent of their medical expenses..."
Gosh, that means that they will be just like me and the rest of middle class America!
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
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Mar 23, 2010 - 03:00am PT
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tarek-
Again man I'm not sure you really know what you're saying. Both of my parents deal with health insurance companies on a daily basis and they are very happy for this bill. They don't think it's the magic bullet, it's just one more step towards something better. A BIG step. Health insurance companies get something out of this there is no doubt, but just because it's good for them doesn't mean that it's bad for us.
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tarek
climber
berkeley
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Mar 23, 2010 - 03:05am PT
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HighDesertDJ, well, obviously you are not just celebrating this because the Republicans lost either, which is the category I specified.
I cannot see this as a positive step, and I have near zero confidence in the current government's ability to control the insurance industry.
If I were a Democratic partisan hack, I'd be really worried about the long-term fallout from this bill. It's gonna haunt their party.
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apogee
climber
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Mar 23, 2010 - 03:05am PT
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"Being for a single-payer system is hardly idealism."
So can I take that to mean that you are a pro-HR, single-payer/PO proponent, through-and-through?
If so, I'm right there with you, bud. But that obviously didn't happen, and for whatever stoooopid-arse political reason, it fell by the wayside a couple of months ago.
So would you have advocated a complete abandonment of the issue altogether? We could probably drink beer together and rail on the inadequacies of the current bill, but would it have been preferable to toss it aside and start over? Whose interest would that have really served the most- HR, or the Status Quo GOP agenda?
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WBraun
climber
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Mar 23, 2010 - 03:17am PT
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America is a stupid country.
It produces garbage food and makes everyone sick.
It then half ass tries to cure them with stupid drugs that are attributed only to MONEY.
It's the stupid system.
And they don't even realize it.
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
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Mar 23, 2010 - 03:22am PT
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Tarek said: "I cannot see this as a positive step, and I have near zero confidence in the current government's ability to control the insurance industry."
If you can't see people being able to get healthcare even with a preexisting condition and no longer being dropped from their plans when they get sick as a good thing then you are too far gone for me. And the gov't regulates the insurance industry every single day. The "problem" is primarily during the legislative process and we are basically through that now.
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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Mar 23, 2010 - 03:24am PT
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WB- "they"?
hahaha
=)
they...
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Mar 23, 2010 - 10:46am PT
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Tarek, I disagree with you on many levels.
1. Republican loss: The Republicans bet the farm on defeating health care reform, in ANY form, as a strictly political action to weaken President Obama (which it would have done). For the hacks in the dem party, this is certainly cause for celebration.
2. Health care providers will definitely be in two camps: those who are progressive and practice according to the best scientific information, will be rewarded in a number of ways: practicing will be easier, and they will make more money. However, many do not, and they will lose access to the money they made for doing futile things. This is a huge improvement in healthcare delivery in the US.
3. Health Care Access. While I agree with you that single payer was the best way to go, it was absolutely killed right at the beginning, by your friends the Repubs, who made it clear on day one, when President Obama was attempting to gain bipartisan support, that it was a deal killer. The Republican strategy was to try to force a plan that would be as bad as possible, so they could run against it's awfulness. They knew "A" plan was likely to pass, as the Dems had the votes. So they tried to dilute the plan as much as possible. You will now see them run against the plan, their plan all along.
Oh, and Physicians for a National Health Program does not require a member to be a physician...........
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Mar 23, 2010 - 11:37am PT
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"Had a nice chat with the CEO of Kaiser last night. The real problems will arise three years from now when the population demands procedures and life extending practices which private insurers would not cover, he ultimately sees rationing and the "death panels"."
Ha, coming from probably the single greatest practitioner of rationing of medical care in America! How is George?
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Boulder, CO
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Mar 23, 2010 - 11:39am PT
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Fat wrote: Had a nice chat with the CEO of Kaiser last night. The real problems will arise three years from now when the population demands procedures and life extending practices which private insurers would not cover, he ultimately sees rationing and the "death panels".
Is that supposed to mean something coming from one of people who help create the current health care problem.
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michae1
Gym climber
san jose
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Mar 23, 2010 - 11:52am PT
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why is it fair to force a company or a individual to to sell a product or service at a loss
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Fat Dad
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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Mar 23, 2010 - 11:54am PT
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Fatty,
My apologies for the juvenile political discourse, but you're so full of sh#$. Your post like the Kaiser one are so inaccurate, so inflammatory that they distract from the real issues. Unfortunately, many on the right have adopted the same playbook to the extent that ordinary voters have bought the lies that this bill will be America's downfall.
Example: here's an exerpt from a letter to the editor from the LA Times this morning:
"As a Vietnam veteran and someone who has been elected to public office twice, I am truly ashamed to be an American for the first time in my life."
How is it that people in a democracy such as ours have elected to believe the pithy soundbites instead of actually educated themselves about these issues?
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dirtbag
climber
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Mar 23, 2010 - 12:00pm PT
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People sure can be selfish.
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tarek
climber
berkeley
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Mar 23, 2010 - 12:00pm PT
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HighDesert,
If you buy the pre-existing condition nonsense, look a lot harder. Loopholes, my friend. The industry both undermined Obama at every opportunity and basically wrote the bill that passed. Costs will continue to climb, as they have in MA, people with insurance will continue to go bankrupt because of health crises. This bill is giving large HCI companies unprecedented levels of power. It will probably force some of the smaller players (less able to conceal their unscrupulous practices) out of the market.
All you have to do is read GAO reports on Medicare billing fraud, and health care billing fraud in general, to know that the government is a poor regulator in this area (and most others--e.g., not fining companies that report their own violations of the clean water act).
apogee, yes through and through for single-payer. This bill was a step backwards. I'm waiting for the dust to settle to see how heavily it will restrict possibilities at the state level for a single-payer, publicly financed, privately delivered care (where it now has to start). I'm saying that, in theory, a compromise bill would have been possible, that could have been a step in the right direction. For example, making provisions for lowering the age requirement for Medicare in stages as many have suggested. This was about pure politics. I would have loved to have seen the Democrats pass some narrower reforms that made sense, such as some in the bill as outlined in the piece I posted from PNHP, as stand-alone legislation months ago. Those would have truly called out the Republicans.
Ken M--well I think you've got this all wrong:
1. Short-term set-back for Repubs, because people gravitate towards winners, long-term big problem for Dems--since they've just created or entrenched many more problems than they've fixed for US health care.
2. MA has been the experiment, and it shows that you are wrong on this. Waste will continue, costs will climb. "Massachusetts already spends one-third more on health care than other states, and costs are rising at unsustainable rates. As a result, they’re chipping away at benefits, dropping beneficiaries and increasing premiums and co-payments." --Marcia Angell, former editor of the New England Journal of Medicine.
3. Again, wrong. These days, Republicans can count on Democrats to take the first whack for them. Bauccus and Obama and many other Dems cut single payer out from the beginning--why? Look into where they get their money, esp. Bauccus. They didn't even allow testimony. Still, this bill could have been a small positive step. But it is not.
Anyhow, my main point was that people who just want to score one in the win column should do some reading. To me, blind allegiance to any party, entity, or person is an embarrassment.
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