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Da_Dweeb
climber
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Sep 25, 2012 - 04:10am PT
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David-
Voy a tratar de resolver este problema a usted de una manera respetuosa.
La ética culturales locales con respecto a la escalada involucrar como pocas modificaciones a la roca como sea posible. Grandes cantidades de modificación, martillar, taladrar, atornillar, serrar, cualquier cosa que daña la roca se debe evitar siempre que sea posible. Los escaladores se modifique la roca, a veces, para enlazar las funciones escalables que de otro modo no podrían alcanzar. Las fotografías que usted y Richard acondicionados están demostrando una gran cantidad de modificaciones y daños a la roca que no parece justificado o propósito - que es la razón más grande por qué mirar hacia fuera! ¡Peligro! Se considera que se hace en forma deficiente por muchos escaladores en este hilo.
También con respecto a la ética de rock local escalada, rutas culturales se consideran estar en baja forma, si no son repetibles por los partidos de ascenso en el futuro. En otras palabras, la inserción y después retirando las espigas de madera y similares no se hacen para una ruta sostenible para las partes de ascenso futuras. (Esta es una gran parte de por qué Jim Beyer fue desacreditado por sus tácticas de Intifada.) Esta es la razón por qué el segundo mayor mirada hacia fuera! ¡Peligro! Se considera que se hace en forma deficiente por muchos escaladores en este hilo.
Por último, al rock local escalada ética cultural, no es una buena idea para tratar de vender una ruta como A6. A6 se considera una "mítica" de calificación. Usted definitivamente no quieren promocionar una ruta como A6 + a menos que sea una subida muy, muy, muy, muy, muy, muy, muy, muy, muy, muy, muy, muy, muy, muy, muy, muy, muy difícil . Las tácticas y técnicas de las fotografías de Look Out! ¡Peligro! mostrar No hablamos de una ruta que es casi lo suficientemente difícil de justificar incluso una calificación A5 por las normas culturales de Estados Unidos escalada.
¿Hay prejuicios contra los escaladores de España o catalán? Si, vamos por lo que he visto aquí, sí la hay. Desde algunos - pero no todos - de los escaladores en este hilo. Es lamentable y desafortunado que este prejuicio existe, sin embargo, esta no es la razón por la cual la mayoría de los escaladores en este tema desaprueba su ascenso. Una vez más, la razón principal es que viola la ética y las normas culturales de lo que constituye un buen primer ascenso a las Torres de Fisher.
Este hilo no es realmente una bomba de ego por parte de Richard Jensen - le informa de lo que encontró en su segundo ascenso. Él ha hecho un buen trabajo de documentar y fotografiar lo que encontró. Sus propias fotografías no son realmente demostrar nada diferente de lo que él informó.
Tal vez en este punto un buen enfoque sería la de expresar humildad y consultar con los escaladores en este foro acerca de cómo hacer una primera ascensión que no violan la ética y las normas culturales de las Torres de Fisher.
David, me gustaría conocer tu opinión sobre esta entrada si no te importa. Gracias.
Respetuosamente,
Jeff Schulze (AKA Coz)
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Da_Dweeb
climber
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Sep 25, 2012 - 04:11am PT
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(The above post was a spanish translation of the following post:)
David-
I will try to address this issue to you in a respectful way.
The Fisher Tower cultural ethics regarding climbing involve as little modification to the rock as possible. Large amounts of modification, hammering, drilling, bolting, sawing, anything that damages the rock is to be avoided whenever possible. Climbers do modify the rock at times, to link up climbable features they otherwise would not be able to reach. The photographs you and Richard put up are demonstrating a great deal of modification and damage to the rock that does not seem warranted or purposeful – that is the largest reason why Look Out! Danger! is considered to be done in poor form by many climbers in this thread.
Also regarding local rock climbing cultural ethics, routes are considered to be in poor form if they are not repeatable by future ascent parties. In other words, inserting and then removing wooden dowels and the like does not make for a sustainable route for future ascent parties. (This is a large part of why Jim Beyer was discredited for his tactics on Intifada.) This is the second largest reason why Look Out! Danger! is considered to be done in poor form by many climbers in this thread.
Finally, by local rock climbing cultural ethics, it’s not a good idea to tout a route as A6. A6 is considered a “mythical” rating. You definitely do not want to tout a route as A6+ unless it is a very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, VERY difficult climb. The tactics and techniques the photographs of Look Out! Danger! show do not speak of a route that is nearly difficult enough to justify even an A5 rating by US cultural climbing standards.
Is there prejudice against climbers from Spain or Catalan? Well going by what I’ve seen here, yes there is. From some - but not all - of the climbers in this thread. It is regrettable and unfortunate that this prejudice exists, however this is not the reason why the majority of climbers in this thread disapprove of your climb. Again, the primary reason is that it violates the cultural ethics and standards of what constitutes a good First Ascent on the Fisher Towers.
This thread is not really an ego pump on the part of Richard Jensen - he is reporting what he found on his second ascent. He has done a thorough job of documenting and photographing what he found. Your own photographs aren’t really demonstrating anything different from what he reported.
Perhaps at this point a good approach would be to express humility and consult with climbers on this forum about how to do a first ascent that would not violate the cultural ethics and standards of the Fisher Towers.
David, I would like to hear your thoughts on this post if you wouldn’t mind. Thank you.
Respectfully,
Jeff Schulze (AKA Coz)
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Da_Dweeb
climber
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Sep 25, 2012 - 04:12am PT
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(And just to be on the safe side, here's a translation in French Canadian:)
JE SUIS PUISSANT! J'ai une lueur vous ne pouvez pas le voir, un cœur gros comme la lune - aussi chaud que l'eau du bain! Nous sommes super-héros, ami! Nous n'avons pas eu le temps d'être charmant! Les bottes du mal sont faites pour marcher! Nous observons la situation dans son ensemble, l'ami! Nous savons que le score! Nous sommes un service public, l'homme! Non garçons glamour! Pas capitaines d'industrie! Gardez votre argent vulgaires, car nous sommes un SANDWICH justice! Pas de garnitures nécessaires! SUPERTOPIANS DE SUPERTOPO, NE vous attrapez ma dérive!
DO. VOUS. DIG!?!?!?!?!
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Rivet hanger
Trad climber
Barcelona
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Sep 25, 2012 - 07:44am PT
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Wow!
You spent three days climbing and when you come back... You find out that again everything seems a matter of nationality.
I've given my opinion and seeing the sad attitude of Jeremy and Richy despite the havoc shown in Pelut's photos (do you all really support a retrobolting since the 1st meter of the route and give any kind of credibility to someone who was there alone?) I just want to translate Pelut's comments. By the way, could you please show a little bit of respect and shut up your despective comments?
Here we go:
empezando primer largo,yo pase con anclas,... - Beginning the first pitch, I passed with anchors...
carai carai,que etica mas buena la de richi,dejar todo puesto y taladrar para poner coopers,que interesante..asi esta el primer largo ahora despues de la repeticion... - Interesting! What an ethics the Richy's one, he leaves everything in place and drills to place coppers, interesting. That's how stays the first pitch after SA...
uumm,,carai con este richar con lo de puritano que va y mira por donde que agujeros para gantxear y poder colgar la hamaca a un metro del suelo,,eso si con dos bolts nose que por la noche se le arranque,claro,con uno solo es muy peligroso.. - Mmmm, how puritain is Richard, what a holes to hook and could hang the portaledge 1 meter over the floor with two bolts because perhaps at night one bolt pops out and with just a single bolt is very dangerous...
mira pordonde el señor de la verdad ,el salvador de las torres se olvida de llevarse su basura...hay hay richi..mal muuuy mal hay que conservar el planeta - Surprise, surprise, the Lord of the truth, Towers's savior forgets to take the rubbish away. Very bad Richy, we must protect the planet.
uy mira richi,,cuidado las maderas fantasmas uuu ,,falta la sierra para cortarlas,,anda que guay eee?? - Watch Richy, the ghost wood, it lacks the handsaw to cut'em, how exciting, right?
anda,mira tu por donde,una reunion sin chapas,mira que tienes poca vista richi,tu la hiciste varios metros mas arriva con una cadenita y tres bolts mu muy largos,claro entiendo que no te gustara esta reunion,era un poco incomoda y dava un poco de yuyu sub - Surprise, surprise, a belay without bolts, what's wrong with your sight? You belayed some meter upper with a chain and thre long, long bolts. Of course I understand that you don't like this belay, was a little bit uncomfortable and a bit scary
miar tu por donde,otra reunion,segun tu muy mala,para mi genial,aaa claro que no tiene bolts,es verdad esta tambien te la saltaste.. - Oh surprise, another belay, very bad according to you but perfect to me. Oh, of course, it doesn't have bolts. It's true, you also went passed it away.
mira richi,..a esto se le llama falque a que mola? - Look Richy, people calls it wedge. Nice, true?
//
mira otro modelito,este si que te puedes fiar ee,no le hace falta ningun bolt al lado...// - Look another type. You can trust in this, no need for a bold nearby.
//
mira mira..trincheras,ala que guapo,no se yo creia que estava guay,y ahora resulta que son trincheras,a las barricadas que viene richiii yujuuu que divertido,brutal// - Look, look, trenches, don't know, I thought it was ok, but they are trenches indeed. To barricades, that Richy comes!
//
peazooo falque chaval,largo saliendo del hotel hilton,lo viste o le metiste tambien un bolt??// - Big wedge, dude, leaving Hilton Hotel. You saw it or you alse placed a bolt?
//
ups,perdon si puse dos rups,pero esque tenia miedo..perdon richi,espero que tu no pusieras dos bolts...con uno te bastava// - Oh sorry, I placed two rurps, but I was affraid. Sorry Richy, I hope you didn't place two bolts... one was enough.
este material te suena richi?te acuerdas que te dije que tenia cosas tuyas?si si este es el material que usas tu para subir...el bolt largo es el de pie de via - This gear sound familiar to you, Richy? Do you remember I said to you I has something yours? This is the gear you use to climb, don't you? The long bolt was on the floor.
aqui ya quedaron claras tus intenciones de lo que ivas hacer,aun no havias ni empezado la ruta y ya estavas taladrando,almenos podias haver atado la cuerda a un arbol e intentar subir sin taladrar,y luego dios dira,pero no,tu nunca as creido en la ruta i as ido directamente a destruirla,porque tu eres el salvador de las torres,ahora entiendo los agujeros de intifada,seguro que los hiciste tu,,ves que facil es acusar sin tener pruevas??pues espera que aun tengo mas fotos.. - Your intention of what you were about to do were very clear. You didn't even begin the route and you were yet drilling. At least you could have tied the rope at a tree and try to climb withot drilling and see what's up. But no, you,ve never believed on the route and you've went directly to destroy it because you are the Towers guardian. Now I understand the holes on Intifada, I'm sure you drilled them. How easy is accusing without having evidences? But wait, I still have more photos...
//
uy,perdon por no poder escribir en ingles pero es lo que tiene la incultura,pero a vosotros tampoco os sirve de nada hablar ingles porque veo que no me entendeis,no digo cojoneeess,,que sea inculto no quiere decir que sea mal educado,respetoo sobre todo respeto,tienes que entender que a mi tambien me a gustado esto de poner fotitos,esta chulo..perdon e coleguita si te e molestado,que no se altere nadie que aun no e terminado,despues ya os dejare enpaz para que os podais masturbar y haceros pajas mentales entre vosotros tranquis que ya casi termino..// - I cannot write in English, sorry, I'm an uneducated, but it doesn't seems much useful to you because I see that you do not understand me neither. And I do not say cojones, to be uneducated doest not mean rude. Respect, specially respect. You should understand that I also love to put photos, it's funny. Sorry if that bothers you, I'm haven't finished. After I will leave you in peace because you could masturbate and jerk off one each other.
//
alomejor no te gusta esta foto richi,pero yo decidi subir asi,y tu no lo respetaste ni te atreviste nisiquiera,y yo si veo una linia aqui...// - Perhaps you don't like this photo Richy, but that's the way I decided to go up and you didn't respected at all and you didn't even dare. I do see a line here...
bueno ya casi termino que estoy ya cansado de tanta tonteria,solo viendo esta foto del trabajo de richar creo que sobran las palabras - Well, I almost finish, I'm fed up of so stupidness, just seeing this photo of Richard's job is enough eloquent.
//
ey jeremy,no podia abandonar el foro sin antes decirte unas cuantas cosas.primero felicitarte por vuestra via realmente es muy bonita y disfrute mucho,todo mi respeto y admiracion hacia vosotros,pero creo que estas haciendo muy mal de juzgar a las personas sin conocerlas,por eso creo que tendrias que ir a repetir hot-parad ice y asi despues poder opinar con criterio propio y no por cosas que an visto otros ojos que no an sido los tuyos,es solo una opinion,me gustaria mucho que la repitieras y la graduaras y le pongas lo que tu creas conveniente,solo decirte que no se puede ser tan negativo,yo no tengo nada en contra de nadie,es mas no me gusta para nada la discusion ni el politiqueo,pero claro esta que richar se a pasado un poco tirando a mucho,contando muchas mentiras e inventandose su propia historia tu realmente despues de ver las fotos de los falques crees que llevavamos una sierra para cortarlas maderas??? porfavor,solo desde mi humilde posicion te puedo invitar a venir a escalar a nuestro pais,aqui no te faltara de nada,y asi podemos intercanviar cultura artificiera,asi que sin faltarte al respeto ni mucho menos cuidaros mucho y disfrutar la vida que esto de internet es para volverse locos,ahora entiendo muchas cosas,si necesitas qualquier cosa richi tiene mi mail,suerte// - Hey Jeremy, I couldn't leave supertopo without saying you some words. Fisrt of all, I congratulate you for your route, in which I enjoyed a lot. All my respect and admiration to you, but I think you are doing very bad when judging people without knowing them. That's why I think you should do the SA of "Hot parad-ice" and like this, judging for yourself and not through other's eyes. It's just and opinion, but I'd like you to repeat it and rate it. I think that you shouldn't be so negative, I'm not against anybody and I don't even like discussions and political things, but it's clear that Richard has gone too far, lieing and inventing his own stories. After seeing the photos, do you really think we bring a handsaw to cut the wood? I'd would be very pleased to invite you to climb in our country and change some aid climbing knowledges. I don't want to be disrespectful to you, just wish you be well and enjoy live, that internet is a crazy thing, now I understand a lot of things. Whatever you need, Richy has my e-mail. Luck.
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raymond phule
climber
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Sep 25, 2012 - 08:05am PT
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do you all really support a retrobolting since the 1st meter of the route
Hard to say because Richard was soloing and thus needed a belay at the bottom. I have no idea if there where any other alternative for a rope solo belay there.
and give any kind of credibility to someone who was there alone?) I just want to translate Pelut's comments. By the way, could you please show a little bit of respect and shut up your despective comments?
despite the havoc shown in Pelut's photos
So photos look pretty consistent with Richard's claims except maybe the belay pics. Drilled placements filled with crap that is not going to last.
Do you still not understand the american ethic that drilled holes should be filled with rivets or bolts and not bashis or wooden pegs stacked with pins?
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Da_Dweeb
climber
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Sep 25, 2012 - 09:39am PT
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Rivet-
could you please show a little bit of respect
respect
You keep using that word.
I do not think it means what you think it means.
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Rivet hanger
Trad climber
Barcelona
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Sep 25, 2012 - 10:26am PT
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Surely not! In my country, when someone bolts other's route, the whole community condemns this kind of action whether the pretext is true or not. And seeing the photos it seems to me that Jensen didn't ever wanted to climb the route, just discredit David and Ester (as I said, probably for his recently downrated WOS. I can't wait anymore for the film, by the way!), something that is very clear when creating a web page to claim the truth of his solo SA and when not even answering Pelut's appeals although he had internet connection (hiding the truth?). Jensen's coppers and bolts still remain on the route (2 coppers, 1 bolt and so on. Maybe fear?), and if you don't understand that is not the same to hang on a line of peckers/coppers/aluheads than on a line of bolts, there's nothing else to discuss.
But I understand your obstinacy having in account that the person who perhaps will become your President declares in public that does not understand why the windows of an airplane cannot be opened...
But I'm really disappointed with Jeremy. Pelut shows him his respect and congratulates him for Weird Science and however, he keeps in this nasty attitude and does not even put in question Jensen's version (do you support his actions Jeremy? That's the question! You can condemn Pelut's trenching (that at the end hasn't been so much), but Beyer did the same and you weren't even a tenth so critic with him after repeating World's End. American prejudice?). I hope Paul will be more reasonable...
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rick d
climber
ol pueblo, az
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Sep 25, 2012 - 10:35am PT
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rivet-
Do you understand that if you drill a 1/4" (6mm) hole- you have touched the drill to rock? Y/N?
Do you understand that for DECADES the standard ethic is "if you drill it, fill it" which means you put a bolt (or rivet) in a hole? Y/N?
You do understand that hole counts have been "de rigueur" for 25 years (or better)? Y/N?
...and last, do you understand that Jim Beyer (or anyone else) drilling bashies (trenching) was and is considered bad form? Y/N?
Thus, if you are a sponsored climber, traveling the globe to get photos and stories printed and you propose you have created the hardest aid climb in the world someone will go have a look. When a second ascent party reports a shiat show of holes, wooden pegs, ripped out trenched heads etc -anyone will get grief from the community. Beyer 'reported' there were no holes and A.4+ belays on Intifada. Well, Richy and Mark kinda have EVIDENCE that was not the case.
Back to a comment many overlooked. Bob Shonerd intentionally went up on a wall without a drill or chisel or copperheads to do a route that would be completed without question. No belay?, just tie your other rope and lead 300 feet till you find one. Pelut et al took a drill and used it. He is a lame wannabe with no testicles. Case closed.
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Rivet hanger
Trad climber
Barcelona
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Sep 25, 2012 - 10:47am PT
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Jim Beyer wasn't criticized for bashing. This fact was just mentioned for Aslaksen on his report of World's end... And of course, nobody said he didn't know to climb and nobody insulted him.
Pelut is not a professional climber, you should be informed before giving your opinion.
Pelut's photos shows how Jensen also used bashies filled with coppers, and still stay there, by the way...
Can you show us a publication where Pelut claims that Look out is the hardest aid climbing route in the world? Or you just can show a publication where he had been directly inteviewed and claims that it just is a A6+ proposal that should be confirmed? HAve you even seen a post of mine on this thred talking about A6/A6+?
Come on, any critics on Jensen and the whole sh#t of America on Pelut. Do you understand what I mean?
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raymond phule
climber
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Sep 25, 2012 - 10:50am PT
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You can condemn Pelut's trenching, but Beyer did the same and you weren't even a tenth so critic with it.
Do you just make up things? Beyer climbed intifada 88. Did Jeremy write something about the route at that time or do you base this on comments or lack of comments on supertopo 20+ years later?
Surely not! In my country, when someone bolts other's route, the whole community condemns this kind of action whether the pretext is true or not
and you do not see the similarity with the fact that it seems like all locals is against Pelut in this case? What about following the local ethics? This climb was not climbed in your country.
What I miss from both you and Pelut is some comments in regard to the extensive drilling by the FA team on the climb. Did he drill a lot of holes for cooperheads and wooden pegs?
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raymond phule
climber
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Sep 25, 2012 - 10:56am PT
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Jim Beyer wasn't criticized for bashing. This fact was just mentioned for Aslaksen on his report of World's end... And of course, nobody said he didn't know to climb and nobody insulted him.
Do you just read the last couple of pages on supertopo and think that you know everything about american climbing history?
I knew a long time before this thread and before Look out was climbed that Beyer trenched heads, drilled unnecessary holes, lied about climbs, chopped bolts on elcap etc and that he was criticize for all those things.
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Rivet hanger
Trad climber
Barcelona
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Sep 25, 2012 - 11:00am PT
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World's End thread Raymond...
Do you see any critics there?
And keep on not condemning Jensen's action, at least everybody arround (yes, the world does not begin and end in the USA) will see this inbreding attitude...
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raymond phule
climber
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Sep 25, 2012 - 11:13am PT
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World's End thread Raymond...
Do you see any critics there?
Yes, I saw critics there. Didn't you? What is your point?
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Rivet hanger
Trad climber
Barcelona
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Sep 25, 2012 - 11:37am PT
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I agree with you Jeremy, but I do not see any fierce critics on your report of World's End. Just because Beyer is Beyer and Pelut is a completely unknown Spaniard (you don't even know Catalonia although you probably know Barcelona), what gives you the right to spill sh#t on him and Ester without any attempt to inform about'em. This is what I mean.
And in addition, i do not see any critics on Jensen's style and his more than probable lies on Look out. You've posted a photo of Pelut's video of this route where he is placing a copper, but some seconds after everybody can clearly see the "mythic" hook belay where no angles are seen, and however nobody posted that frame. I do understand that the style used in Look out is not the best (as wasn't Intifada or World's End), but I'd like to see how you put in words the mess that Jensen commited and in the route (a thing that you can report in your coming trip to Towers) and at least being critic with Pelut at the same level that with beyer and other people drilling little bashies (and I'm not justifying this acts). This is the point for me...
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crunch
Social climber
CO
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Sep 25, 2012 - 11:39am PT
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Da Dweeb:
This thread is not really an ego pump on the part of Richard Jensen - he is reporting what he found on his second ascent. He has done a thorough job of documenting and photographing what he found. Your own photographs aren’t really demonstrating anything different from what he reported.
Not exactly true. What's up with this one, which appear to be a new bolt, four feet off the ground. The caption says: primer paso de la via y ya tienes miedo richi?? hay hay la edad.... Google translates this to:
first step of the way and now you're afraid richi?? There is no age
Did you really place a bolt five feet off the ground, Richard?
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Rivet hanger
Trad climber
Barcelona
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Sep 25, 2012 - 11:52am PT
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I'm talking about this... A Jensen's lie? Where is the angle?
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Rivet hanger
Trad climber
Barcelona
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Sep 25, 2012 - 11:56am PT
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So to me the point is do you support Jensen?
By the way, we'll be very pleased to meet you (and Pelut&Ester even offers you all his hospitality) in your next trip to Catalonia...
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rick d
climber
ol pueblo, az
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Sep 25, 2012 - 12:05pm PT
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Rivet-
In case you missed it, I wrote in this thread that Richard should have come down after seeing the crap on the first and second pitches. I, in no way, defend his continuation of the line. A line of worthless bolt hangers is just that. A monument to vanity. As is a line with worthless holes.
Jeremy and I did a new line 230' line with one hole on each pitch and two double bolt anchors this past saturday and sunday. I think we are grading it 5.7 A.0x (but that was in trainers and only one 12oz left from Sat 2100-Sun 1800.)
hole count
pitch 1, 1/2
pitch 2, 1/2
Pretty modest in my opinion.
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Rivet hanger
Trad climber
Barcelona
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Sep 25, 2012 - 12:08pm PT
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I'm serious, We'll be very pleased to contact to you Jeremy. And there's any sarcasm in these words, I'm serious. You have yet Pelut's e-mail, so just give the call.
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rick d
climber
ol pueblo, az
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Sep 25, 2012 - 12:08pm PT
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I don't know when the angle appeared, but that circled item IS A DRILLED HOLE that should have had a legitimate bolt placed in it.
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