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Bronwyn
Trad climber
Not of This World
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Cintune,
There are references in the Old Testament to other planets, but I don't think it was a critical topic...the intention of the Bible was to reveal what God was doing on Earth.
PS: if I recall correctly, there is only one recorded instance of Moses killing anyone, the Egyptian who had learned that Moses was a Jew.
Nobody ever said the people of the Old Testament were perfect...far from it.
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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So the bible was kind of written on a "need to know" basis? First order of business: slaughter the Canaanites; we'll get to the rest later...
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jstan
climber
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Bronwyn:
Thank you, you interpreted my question correctly. Again your points are valid as regard past courageous action by followers.
The thing that keeps coming out here and in outside life is the presumption that if I believe, god will consider me perfect. Nothing more is required of me. The instances you cite did not show this characteristic.
It does not make any difference whether one believes or one does not believe.
Courage and discernment will be required of all.
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago
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cintune- "first order of business, slaughter the Canaanites...".
The Canaanites would have slaughtered the Israelites! They greatly outnumbered the Israelites. And God forbade intermarriage because they(Canaanites) believed in multiple gods(polytheism)child sacrifice and various other blatant offences that would corrupt the Israelites relationship with the Creator.
If you are going to question the relationship of the Hebrews(Israelites)and there God, you have to look at the whole picture and hypothetically evaluate it from the standpoint of Jehovah/Yahweh/Jesus being the one true God.
It is about God choosing a people, the Israelites, as the ones He revealed Himself to.
The simple fact of the matter is today He is offering you a personal relationship with Him, outside of religion! As I stated before, and Gobee, Bronwyn and others have explained, man is at fault for the atrocities etc. and Religion is a man made institution. A set of rules and practices that if followed supposedly bring you closer to God.
Some one asked what is the true religion. Jesus said, "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life."
Christ states that you must have a personal relationship with Him, plan and simple. My relationship began at eight years old and will continue throughout eternity.
It is a simple invitation. He made it simple so that even children could understand, and so man could not take credit by works/good deeds. He desires/expects for us to accomplish these works and good deeds etc. once we have a relationship with Him, not before. He promises to direct and empower us to do these acts.
I am out and about(in borders right now). Noticed that there are alot of great questions and answers/discussion going on. I'll have to catch up later.
Later...da' Trip~
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago
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Doc-"When you talk to Jesus...".
Like I explained to you several times before, "talking to Jesus" is simply praying. Jesus gave us an example of how to pray in the "Lords Prayer". "Our Father who art in Heaven...".
It is a matter of faith, and a lifetime of answered prayer. I don't need to prove anything to you or anyone else. I doubt if I could. You are the one missing out on the benefit of such a relationship. Ask Him yourself, only He can answer your questions F.
Satan does not answer prayer requests to God, he usually tries to derail any positive outcome in a believers life.
I know all of this sounds bizarre/crazy etc.... until you seek Him yourself. "Seek and you shall find."
I am going to get some food in my stomach, just got back from the MD's office(had to fast all day). She was concerned about my elevated blood sugar. I hope I don't have diabetes.
Good to see you are back Dr.F.
Peace!
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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The Canaanites would have slaughtered the Israelites! They greatly outnumbered the Israelites. And God forbade intermarriage because they(Canaanites) believed in multiple gods(polytheism)child sacrifice and various other blatant offences that would corrupt the Israelites relationship with the Creator.
Shoulda coulda woulda, huh? Um, sure. Ethnic cleansers always cite "corruption" as an excuse for mass murder.
If you are going to question the relationship of the Hebrews(Israelites)and there God, you have to look at the whole picture and hypothetically evaluate it from the standpoint of Jehovah/Yahweh/Jesus being the one true God.
Uh-huh. And if you're going to question, say, the relationship of the Nazis and the Jews in 1939, do you have to look at the whole picture and hypothetically evaluate it from the standpoint of the Aryan race being the natural born masters of the world too?
It is about God choosing a people, the Israelites, as the ones He revealed Himself to.
No, it's about an oppressed people bootstrapping themselves into a position of authority by convincing their followers that it was okay to commit atrocities in the name of an imaginary supernatural being.
The simple fact of the matter is today He is offering you a personal relationship with Him, outside of religion! As I stated before, and Gobee, Bronwyn and others have explained, man is at fault for the atrocities etc. and Religion is a man made institution. A set of rules and practices that if followed supposedly bring you closer to God.
Man is at fault for atrocities committed in the name of god? Why doesn't he do something about that? He had no problem smiting left and right in the bad old days whenever his "chosen" ones got out of line. Since then he's just been sitting back and shrugging it all off with the well-worn "free will" slacker excuse?
Some one asked what is the true religion. Jesus said, "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life."
Yeah, he was really, really into himself, that much we know.
Christ states that you must have a personal relationship with Him, plan and simple. My relationship began at eight years old and will continue throughout eternity.
That's cool for you. Seriously. Krsna is cool for Werner. And even Allah is cool for, say, the Sufis. All depends on what you do with your religion, or more like what you don't do with it.
It is a simple invitation. He made it simple so that even children could understand, and so man could not take credit by works/good deeds. He desires/expects for us to accomplish these works and good deeds etc. once we have a relationship with Him, not before. He promises to direct and empower us to do these acts.
That's alright. Being good for goodness's sake is good enough for me. Eternity can take care of itself.
I am out and about(in borders right now). Noticed that there are alot of great questions and answers/discussion going on. I'll have to catch up later.
Skipped ahead to the next post, hope the diagnosis turns out okay, dude. My dad's been struggling with diabetes for a few years now... there's an example of some unintelligent design for ya.
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago
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cintune- "Ethnic cleansers...".
If that is how you are going to look at it(and if I were looking at it in that context) I would agree. But this is a question about weather or not Jesus Christ is God.
THAT Is the question. You can look at the Bible from any humanitarian/secular viewpoint you wish until the day you die and find fault on that basis/viewpoint. If I was reading it as a historical/man made outcome of one tribe/religion verses another I would probably agree.
If you are going to justify/condemn the stories of the Bible and compare them and God/Jesus to Hitler, then in go ahead. I can fully understand if you believe it is a man made religion. And not a relationship to the Creator that Moses and I have(along with other believers). Then it is simply a matter of people destroying people.
Believe what you want cintune, it is your eternity. But if I was you, I would personally ask Jesus Christ yourself. He alone can penetrate a heart of stone if you allow Him.
EDIT: Not suggesting you have a heart of stone, on the contrary(you wouldn't be participating here and asking questions if you did)I was just saying He could penetrate any heart, even the hardest heart.
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago
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cintune- "why doesn't he do something about that?"
To begin with, man would take the credit for it. So why should He? You seem to be missing the whole point of the God of the Bible! This is a battle for souls. His creatures created in His image.
He came to earth and He was crucified by us. He will intervene, at the battle of Armageddon. If He doesn't, mankind will destroy itself!! Do you find this an impossible scenario(a nuclear war)?
You blame everything bad in the world on God, and give the credit for everything good to man!!
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Dec 10, 2009 - 12:48am PT
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"If the strongest advocates of a particular belief, i.e. the church and its leaders, consistently engage in behavior ranging from dishonest and hypocritical to atrocious and perverted over centuries, shouldn't the foundations of that belief system be questioned?"
Though all these be found false, God is still true! There's not one thing that Jesus said that's not totally righteous and perfect, not one!
Daily Readings from the Life of Christ (vol.1) By John MacArthur
Renewing Your Mind - Dr. R.C. Sproul
http://www.oneplace.com/ministries/Renewing_Your_Mind/archives.asp
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Dec 10, 2009 - 01:08am PT
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"but the whole deal seems downright wacko."
No one could make up what Jesus said unless He did say it.
Other wise I agree with your statement!
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 10, 2009 - 01:12am PT
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You'll just have to take that path to test it.
We can describe all the qualities of water and still if one has never come in direct contact with water there will be no real experience/taste.
The test has to be bonafide.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Dec 10, 2009 - 01:18am PT
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In answer to an evolutionary question about language and the brain. I am not familiar with language development in children as my interest has always been in the cross cultural aspects of language. What I can tell you is this:
-human beings are born with a genetically programmed grammar already in our brains. This has been proven from studies of how pijin languages become creoles and the personal languages sometimes invented by identical twins. In all cases, the grammar has similar rules, even if the base language is different. French, English, and Spanish based creoles are the best studied so far however.
-this innate grammar is also present to some degree in the great apes as well, since they can all be taught sign language and are bilingual in both signs and heard English (trainer speaks in English and ape responds with the appropriate sign.
-the area for hand movement and language is close in the brain and they appear related. People remember words better if they exercise hand movements (any kind) while memorizing word lists. Anthropologists speculate that hand signals came first, then sounds, then words with grammar were added later. Very young children take to sign language well before they can form words.
-the languages that we speak are superimposed on our innate grammar, usually by our mothers, hence "mother tongue". We also learn our accents from our mothers while still in the womb. A recent study found that German newborns cry with a falling tone and French with a rising tone similar to the cadence of their respective mother's language.
-Children can learn several languages before age five, but generally need to learn only one first, before proceeding to the others. How they think about language is illustrated in a funny story from Swedish parents living in Germany. They spoke Swedish to the child at home, and the child spoke perfect German at kindergarten. When the family vacationed in Sweden, the child spoke Swedish to all the adults and tried to speak only German to the Swedish children.
-True bilingualism happens only if the language is learned before the age of five.
-if a child does not learn to speak by age five, they can not because the neural connections for language in the brain are rigid by then.
-Speaking is done from the left hemisphere, and singing and swearing from the right hemisphere. Some people with strokes can not even say their name but can still swear because of this phenomenon because swearing and strong emotions are connected.
-For the same reason people in comas have been known to sing church music at their own last rites when they could not speak to the priest.
I do not know, but I suspect that children learn language either bit by bit, or as whole sentences depending on whether they are primarily left or right brain in their orientation. Certainly that's why some children learn to read better with the phonics bit by bit left brain method and others by the more visual look and see sentence fragments method.
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Bronwyn
Trad climber
Not of This World
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Dec 10, 2009 - 01:30am PT
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Hi Warbler,
I will try to address your question regarding the way the historical church has acted through the centuries.
I am an American citizen. I accept my citizenship... However, I do NOT accept or embrace all the ways the American government and American military have acted through American history, acting, as it is claimed, on behalf of Americans. However, these things are in the past. My duty as a current American citizen is to be the best, most informed citizen I can be, and to require an accounting from our government and military for some of their (current) actions.
Please don't assume that every Christian voted for Bush!!!
We know that the US is founded on some fine ideals...we also know that we often do not live up to those ideals, but that does not mean that those ideals are not sound, simply because we often fail them.
Forgiveness is not a license to sin, nor is it a "get out of jail free" card. We are still accountable for our actions. I can understand how, when you look at the history of the church, it would be easy to be disillusioned. For the first 800 years or so of Christianity, it was a capital offense in the Roman empire to be a Christian (hence all those feedings to the lions.) Then the Emperor Constantine became a Christian, or at least decided it might be more politically beneficial to do so.(I think in 832 or thereabouts.) Suddenly Christianity became the state religion; it became political, not faith-based, and that is when things really started to get screwed up. IMHO.
I believe in total separation of church and state, period. I think it is better for ALL Americans. HIstorically, combining the two has been disastrous.
I would love to try and address the question of forgiveness versus "license to sin" but I think my brain is fried at this hour. Perhaps someone could take up the mantle, or until tomorrow...
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Dec 10, 2009 - 01:54am PT
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A little Church history.
-Constantine granted religious tolerence to Christians in 313 A.D.
-In 316 A.D. Constantine waged war against Christians of the Donatist interpretation.
The primary disagreement between Donatists and the rest of the early Christian Church was that the Donatists refused to accept the sacraments and spiritual authority of the priests and bishops who had fallen away from the faith during the Diocletian persecution of 303-305.
Constantine's stand was the more liberal position, though his war on the Donatists was hardly in keeping with the pacifist tradition of the church to that point. It was in fact the first Christian Holy War, supported by all the non Donatists bishops of the church.
-In 325 A.D. Constantine organized the Council of Nicaea to codify Christian doctrine.
This resulted in the Nicaean Creed, also known as the Apostle's Creed, used by Christians to this day.
-In 337 A.D., realizing that he was near death, Constantine was baptized finally.
This was in keeping with a common tradition of the day. Since it was believed that baptism forgave all sins up to that point, people often postponed it as long as possible.
By 832 A.D., the date you gave, the Church had already persecuted and killed many groups of early Christians whose teachings it deemed heretical.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Dec 10, 2009 - 03:06am PT
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Wow, interesting stuff on Language in the previous page.
Having studied Sanskrit and learned Hindi pretty extensively has made me think about language a lot. At a certain level of our minds, we think in our language. The result of this means that our facility with language is reflected in the range, lucidity, and nuance of our thoughts. (on some level, there's a part of us beyond the inner dialog that knows things but can't express them necessarily.
When I'd hang out in India for a long time, I'd start to think in Hindi sometimes. I was not completely fluent so it was like being drugged almost. My ability to translate my concepts into expressions was hobbled.
There's no science in what I claim above, just my personal experience. Word order in Hindi is different so it wouldn't be uncommon to say the equivalent of "I Jan with supertopo on language discussed." Even the grammar of our language influences the motion of our thoughts.
Peace
Karl
Thought on God. I seems that God seems to evolve as humanity comes out of it's own darkness. The Gods of 3000+ years ago were often warlike. Humans were too, and God(s) worldwide demanded animal blood sacrifice. That mostly changed, in both East and West, perhaps a thousand years later.
It seems God is interpreted via the lens of human culture at the time. Perhaps we're not able to listen outside the box of our vision of life. God, as Jesus spoke of God, was no longer in the business of slaughtering people to conquer their lands.
Peace
Karl
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago
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Dec 10, 2009 - 03:24am PT
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The Warbler- "The strongest advocates....over the centuries."
They were strongest in what aspect? Not serving Christ and denying self. I truly doubt if any of the Popes(or many Catholic priests) will be found in Heaven! Like I pointed out, the Catholic church burnt believers at the steak. They kept the Bible away from the people for over 1,000 years! They did not practice what the foundation of Christianity teaches "To love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind and strength.' 'And to love your neighbor as yourself." They created a religion with all sorts of false teachings, and kept the very core of it(the Bible)away from the masses.
I never agreed with Bush in regards to going to war with Iraq. Neither did Pat Robertson and various other 'leaders' in the church. Familiarity with the near east in regards to Bible history would tell anyone it was a bad idea.
Just like Gobee was saying, man and the believing church can make mistakes/be swayed towards bad decisions. The church on a whole is in a very 'worldly' materialistic condition at this time. Many shortcomings over the last 30-40 yrs or so. The "prosperity gospel" is one of the false doctrines that has manipulated and has been falsely preached for example. And in my opinion, becoming to entwined with politics and isolating(probably the wrong word) homosexuals.
"An easy way out". No one who truly excepts Christ can then simply go on sinning and not face the wrath of God. It is called "chastisement". He will deal with you. He and only He knows your heart. I have been dealt with a number of times over the years. "You shall fear only the Lord your God...". This is something that every Christian will experience to one degree or another, depending on the obedience of the believer(it is between them and God)He will deal with sin in a believers life. Ask any Christian.
"as a license to sin". As it is taught in I believe "Corinthians", some of the believers there were on there sick beds and some had died in regards to there insistence on practicing such things(sex ouside of marriage, some were doing so with their "fathers wives" I believe it says). God deals with it. This is a misconception of non-Christians. Just watch what happens to them. Jimmy Swaggart, Ted Haggard more recently, and several other high profile pastors are examples of this. God will not let you get away with it. He is slow to anger, but if Christians fail to repent and turn, He will deal with them. We have all experienced it.
And it wasn't easy for Christ, He paid the ultimate price for our sins over the years. He gets all the glory. For man to work for there salvation would be to degrade the gift/price He paid for us.
It is not an easy life. It is constant warfare with the flesh(lust etc.), the world(materialism etc.)and the devil/spiritual warfare, dark thoughts/ideas etc. These are concepts that can only be understood from a believers standpoint(I hesitate to even mention them here in this venue). There is a spiritual realm. That is why it is so difficult to define or relate to this "relationship" I keep bringing up.
Great questions/concerns/points made Kevin. I just did a so-so job of attempting to answer a few of them. I would suggest everyone to read The Gospel of John, to see what Jesus said about these things. And keep an open mind to the possibility that if there is a God, and nothing is impossible with Him, that He could get His message to all mankind. In the form of an incredible love letter known as the Bible. "For God so loved the world..." John 3:16.
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MH2
climber
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Dec 10, 2009 - 04:03am PT
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Thanks Jan.
Of course, gradual learning and sudden leaps in ability aren't mutually exclusive, even within an individual. It would be interesting if people fell broadly into 2 different classes, though, as you seemed to be saying in regard to left/right brain.
Speaking of innate grammer, how is Noam Chomsky's earlier career regarded these days? My thesis advisor, no slouch himself, referred to his work as deep.
come to think of it
The report that French and German babies cry with acquired-in-the-womb accents has a peculiar implication. When you learn anything, it seems like there has to be, as a minimum requirement, some kind of way to know what the desired goal is. Then you take a stab at it and you need some kind of way to see if you are close enough for practical purposes or need to improve.
If babies in the womb aren't making crying noises, how is it that simply hearing an accent can modify the motor side of things?
One of the neurophysiologists who came to talk at Chicago said that plasticity was necessary because genes can only hold so much information and a motoneuron doesn't initially "know" the force that will result when it activates its motor unit.
CBC Radio had a long segment on the baby study, with examples of French and German infant accents. It could fall in line with the view that the brain doesn't just compare an output to a goal and correct the error, but somehow builds a model or map with what information it has and can then modify output based on prediction rather than trial and error.
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Dec 10, 2009 - 08:41am PT
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"... religion's history with Native Americans?"
Sad most us city dwellers haven't seen a night sky in many a moon. And we don't live off the land so that the earth gives up it's bounty, and take it with reverence.
The Native Indians, that honored the Great Spirit believed in God, and do unto others as you would want done unto you. Thy learned from the animals, the Mouse only saw what was right in front of him, the Eagle in flight could see the big view, but if it ate to much, could not fly. Thy lived in harmony on God's green earth. But there were other Indians that also took what they wanted.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Dec 10, 2009 - 08:57am PT
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tripl7-
I know that you personally don't care for the Catholic church, but don't believe every anti - Catholic sentiment you hear out of a Protestant either. I heard all of them growing up in a Protestant family and community, and when I checked them out, a lot were just fabrications.
While the Catholic Church is certainly guilty for a lot, if you study the history of the Protestant Reformation, so were the Protestants. The Protestants killed Catholics and other Protestants they didn't agree with equally. Just study Mennonite or Hutterite history and what was done to the Anabaptists by both sides, or later Quaker history in England.
Meanwhile, it is quite incorrect to say that the Catholic Church kept the Bible away from the people for 1,000 years. The reality is that before the invention of Gutenburg's printing press in 1440, all Bibles had to be copied by hand and were very scarce. It could take one person a lifetime just to copy a single Bible. The people who did the copying by the way, were Catholic monks.
The other reason the Church did not keep the Bible away from the people is that they couldn't have read it anyway, they were illiterate. Only with the invention of the printing press, was there enough reading material to encourage mass literacy. The Protestant tradition of parsing scripture is a only 200-300 years old.
One of the several reasons Martin Luther emphasized faith only, is that without the ritual of the Church, that was about all people had. If they were Catholic, the priest told them what was in the Bible, if they were early Protestants, the minister told them. Either way, the illiterates were not reading and interpreting it for themselves.
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Bronwyn
Trad climber
Not of This World
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Dec 10, 2009 - 10:26am PT
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Hi Jan,
Thanks for catching me on the years of Constantine's activities. Like I said, brain was a tad fried.
The Nicene Creed and the Apostle's Creed, are, however, two very different and distinct statements. The Nicene Creed was codified in 325, but the Apostle's Creed is believed to be much older, probably the original statement of faith used by believers to sum up their beliefs when asked. The Apostle's Creed is much shorter and less complex.
Neither of these is "necessary" for salvation...only belief in Jesus is necessary. In a time when most people were illiterate, and information was mostly oral, having a creed to memorize probably made it easier for most people to understand the foundation of the faith, since they could not read the Bible. But knowing the text of either of these is not critical for salvation.
The language thing does fascinate me...I have heard people say that cats and dogs "bark" and "meow" differently in different parts of the world, although when I have been traveling I haven't really noticed. Animals can be bi-lingual, which does make one wonder...
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