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WBraun
climber
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Jan -- "Oh no !
Here we go again!
Maybe this is hell."
Hahaha LOL
Don'tcha love us .....
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monolith
climber
Berkeley, CA
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Werner, if you understand that our dna has a lot of the characteristics of computer software, one can begin to see how intelligence can arise from mutation and natural selection.
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WBraun
climber
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monolith, Yes that's exactly true.
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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"has a lot of the characteristics of computer software"
Like a Virus!
Edit; Top down, from God!
Bump; We all have a mother!!!
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wack-N-dangle
Gym climber
the ground up
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and we all have a father, and most all cultures have explanations of creation.... why only yours? There is wisdom in many cultures.
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Prezwoodz
Big Wall climber
Anchorage
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This thread is all over the place...still though I am curious. Did anyone learn anything here?
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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"Denial? Ignorance? Jesus?"
One God made us all! And his Son is Jesus!
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WBraun
climber
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Prezwoodz
Yes, we learn about ourselves, and others, how our human nature responds, interacts and reacts in relation to this subject matter.
We learn subtle things from everything .....
It's beautiful.
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MH2
climber
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However, not every great scientific discovery, especially theoretical discovery, has been made with logic. Many came by intuition first and were shored up with logic and experiment later.
Quite so. The ground has to be prepared, as it were, but the one or two really smart people I've met had the big idea first and then went about finding out why they were right.
My guess is that your brain can do a lot of heavy thinking without you being aware of it, if you give it the chance. For someone like me to get a big idea though, would be like a mouse trying to give birth to an elephant. There is always some kind of proportion between the portal and the production.
In my terribly modest experience with science, what we call logic mostly happens at the end of a cycle of research when it is time to publish.
Logic can help you test the truth value of statements about related facts but it can't take you far into the unknown.
That is a circuitous way to get around to asking Jan a question.
Jan,
Do you know how children pick up language? Not the internal mechanics, but what do people see when they observe the process? That is, when toddlers start to speak, what kind of errors are there and are those errors slowly and gradually corrected (as though by stepwise logic), or does the child improve his/her language in large jumps (as though by intuition)?
I realize it's a big and possibly messy topic but seems to me one of the more accessible windows into how (part of) the mind works.
As far as I remember our 2 kids went straight from babbling to asking to borrow the car, but memory is fallible.
Although it shouldn't be too hard to keep a record of almost everything a baby hears and says during a significant part of learning to speak, I don't know if it's been done. It could be a good demonstration of how unlike a stereotypical machine the brain is.
I do have a fairly complete record of the scrawled/written output of our firstborn. Early on is a stage of wobbly curves. Then numbers appear, at first only 0,1,2,3, but reasonably neat and unmistakable. Numbers appeared everywhere, in fact, up as high on the wall as a little one can reach. But the big surprise was to look down at the sketchpad one day and see, "I want some eggs." There might have been a few letters produced before that. I'd have to go back and check.
The point is, for my money, what happens over and over, all around the world every day, is profoundly strange and deeply fascinating. It isn't the adults that are interesting, though.
I don't get too excited about it, though, because if it was easy, or even just pretty damn hard, computer scientists would be farther ahead in speech production and recognition.
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Hi Andy: Jan will no doubt get around to answering your question about the process of learning speech, but in the meantime here is some anecdotal material.
A friend of yours and mine who raised kids around the same time as you and I, was all excited when his daughter constructed her first sentence. It was: "Pooh bum out, SPLASH!" I'm not sure what that tells us about the way children learn language, but...
And then there are my number two son's first written words. He was in kindergarten at the time, and while he was precocious in his reading ability, he'd never actually written anything. I had angered him -- can't remember how, but he was definitely pissed -- and he retreated to his room. A few minutes later he came out, tugged my sleeve, and silently led me back to his room. With the pencil he was holding he pointed to the wall, on which he had written... "F*#K DAVE"
Damn near pissed myself laughing.
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago
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wack-And-dangle!
Thanks for those links. I watched both of them, and a couple of the others associated with them. I wonder what the "Black Lodge Singers" were saying in there songs? Sounded pretty powerful!
When I turned 8yrs old my father bought me a bow and some hunting arrows(broad-heads). From that moment on I read every book I could get my hands on regarding the different Indian Tribes of N.A.
"He has put eternity in their hearts..." Ecclesiastes 3:11
Because we are made in the image of God, we have an inborn inquisitiveness about eternal realities. And obviously they had a deap seated and compulsive drive to transcend thier mortality by knowing the meaning and destiny of the world.
You ask "What about..." Well it is evident that the Native Americans were aware of God by the evidence all around them(the universe) just as it says "For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen..." Romans 1:20.
They were judged(before the "Good News" of salvation through Jesus Christ)by whether or not they obeyed their conscious that God gave them. When they heard the truth spoke to them in regards to the Gospel, and God coming to earth and dying for them, they were then judged just like you, me and Gobee and everyone else that has heard the Truth and excepted or rejected it.
It was the American government that ripped off the Native Americans, not followers of Jesus Christ, Kevin!! Why do you blame every war etc. on Jesus Christ? Jesus never instigated any war, except the war against the hater of your soul, Satan!! Why do you have such a bitter hatred for the teachings of Jesus KW?
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rectorsquid
climber
Lake Tahoe
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"This thread is all over the place...still though I am curious. Did anyone learn anything here?"
Yes:
* There are many more atheists and agnostics on the taco than I might have thought.
* People hear Jesus in their car telling them what to do.
* The people who hear Jesus in their car telling them what to do think that people that hear voices in their head are crazy, other than them.
* No one will ever be converted. People believe in what their parents teach them.
* The taco is more interesting than Facebook.
Damn, I'm glad my parents never taught me anything more than to learn things for myself and to make my own decisions. Whatever I believe now, at least it's my belief and not one I inherited.
Dave
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WBraun
climber
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I'm out here in center field.
Where the fuk is the batter?????
Hey batter, batter, batter
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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I learned that triple 7 is a sincere, thoughtful sort, with a sense of humor, I don't have to agree with with him to appreciate him.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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I actually have to go to work today, but the act of debating on this thread (and others like it) has greatly evolved my thinking on several topics, including a better understanding of the evolution theory, its role in biology, and the nature of the "supernatural" and how it can be brought into a consistent picture of a physical reality.
More later...
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Homer
Mountain climber
Santa Cruz, CA
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Isn't the difference between intuition and logic mostly just our consciousness of the information that we're processing? In both cases we have the information, just with intuition we're not conscious that we have it? Yes Jan, I think on an individual level, intuition is always going to have more information to work with than logic does. I hope so anyway!
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