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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Feb 25, 2015 - 12:19am PT
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I think you’re still grousing about self-consistency. If non-science has no leg to stand on, neither does science. Bloody hell . . . at least show some consistency. Take some stand and apply it equally in everything, otherwise we might think you fickle, simply self-interested, or or expeditious.
It wouldn't be possible to be more consistent than I have been in this [non]discussion about the nature of consciousness and mind over the past several years. And I will hand it to Largo he's consistent as well; he just says essentially 'nothing' at all about the nature of consciousness.
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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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Feb 25, 2015 - 07:37am PT
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yes, AI has dead ended and its researchers are jumping ship to become organizational theorists and life coaches. its like cold fusion out there.
I know, i just asked my cell phone.
tons of cognative researchers agree that the brain is just too hard. Its a one trillion connection ouija board. fk it.
at least 3 tons. maybe more.
Turing 2.0: the machine starts posting drivel and Hallmark truisms on the internet.
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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Feb 25, 2015 - 09:10am PT
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Mike,
I don't need a theory to question this statement:
If people have any perceptual wherewithal when reading this thread, they will immediately realize that what is missing from a staunch computational model is not only their subjective experience but also their real time awareness of same.
When someone makes a statement that appears to them as fact, but which may not be obvious to all, it is reasonable to ask them to support their assertion.
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Feb 25, 2015 - 10:01am PT
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Why could a computational device not have subjective experience and real-time awareness of same?
But isn't this question of exactly the same weight as: Why should a computational device have subjective experience and real-time awareness of same? And to science it would seem this is the more important question.
And what is the answer besides complexity? And the assumption again is that complexity equals consciousness.
And that assumption may be in error.
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Wayno
Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
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Feb 25, 2015 - 10:16am PT
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Which idea do YOU subscribe to?
None of the above.
Seems to me we have here four basic ideas how the consciousness (soul) arouse.
Seems to me we have one basic idea from each individual how the conciousness (soul) arose. That is like six billion ideas. Minus of course the ones that don't even care to think about things like that, which leave us with about only a million ideas. I think that most people remain unconscious about consciousness. And they live their lives and try to be happy and fulfilled. Some like to be that way and some like to think they understand something. Every viewpoint is valid in this world even if it is not yours.
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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Feb 25, 2015 - 10:30am PT
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Every viewpoint is valid in this world even if it is not yours.
Why the qualifier "in this world?" Are you trying to exclude Flat-Earthers??
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Wayno
Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
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Feb 25, 2015 - 10:58am PT
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Why? No particular reason. How about "in this universe". Or maybe just Guam.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Feb 25, 2015 - 11:08am PT
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Breaking...
FBI foils plot of three Americans who tried to join ISIS...
http://www.cnn.com/2015/02/25/us/new-york-terror-plot/index.html
Not jumping to any conclusions yet - they could be Amish. ;)
.....
Ha!
"Every viewpoint is valid in this world even if it is not yours."
Can't believe you posted that.
Really?
Never mind ISIS. Where's those virgins to throw into the angry volcano? Pele's horny. (Or maybe just hungry.)
Maybe at Wayno's, lol!
"Valid" is of course a function of the norms or standards one has in mind.
So Wayno's got us there.
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Wayno
Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
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Feb 25, 2015 - 11:42am PT
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Maybe at Wayno's, lol!
Shhh. I only have enough for me. lol.
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MikeL
Social climber
Seattle, WA
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Feb 25, 2015 - 12:09pm PT
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Tvash: AI has dead ended and its researchers are jumping ship to become organizational theorists and life coaches.
You’re difficult to understand with all your oblique silliness. I’m honestly curious: what are your intentions with this kind of writing? Do you think it’s responsive--akin in strangeness to what others write (me, too); do you like adding something to the conversation to make it wobble out of a rut; are you comically perverse; ADHD (or something else)? You’re not exactly on-target, and I suspect I'm missing something.
MH2:
I take your point.
Moose: Many species are self conscious.
How do you mean this? Do you mean that they are self-reflective? Do you mean they have some kind of identity problems (ala, Woody Allen’ish)? Do you mean they are aware of a body? With any choice, I’d like to know how you know these things. I mean, you’re speculating, aren’t you? Making an inference?
Wayno:
All excellent points.
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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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Feb 25, 2015 - 12:28pm PT
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complexity = consciousness? what manner of nonsense is this?
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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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Feb 25, 2015 - 12:34pm PT
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my humor may be too complex for some forms of consciousness. suffice to say that some statements posted are so patently ludicrous that satire is the only morally sound response. Strawmen beg for the Bic - emolation rejoins them with the world of the thinking.
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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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Feb 25, 2015 - 12:39pm PT
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a common self awareness test: The Mirror Test (1970): paint something on an animal's head. if they look in a mirror and then try to remove it, they're self aware.
dont let it get you down. its only strawmen burning.
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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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Feb 25, 2015 - 12:48pm PT
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anyone see that Chinese rocket booster burn up in the atmosphere late Mon night? Like a huge, slo mo meteor. Amazing!
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Feb 25, 2015 - 01:16pm PT
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MikeL, serious post for a change. From one veteran squatter and gym rat to another...
Did you ever read Cosmos, by Carl Sagan? Just curious.
If you did, what is your critique of it if you wouldn't mind?
It doesn't have to be long, I'm just seeking a sense of it, I guess...
(a) regarding the science he presented; (b) regarding his writing style, use of English, etc.
I'm just trying to get a fuller sense of these things.
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Wayno
Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
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Feb 25, 2015 - 01:48pm PT
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Hfcs, you got me thinking about our little joke. Seeing how you really like these ISIS guys, What if we were to show them that we had 70 virgins already and we didn't have to strap on a bomb and kill infidels. All we had to was be nice and maybe generous with the gifts. Another thought is why 70 virgins? Would they defile them and then be left virgin-less again and have to go get seventy more? You're right, These guys are really stupid, and dangerous but alas, valid. At least valid to someone, they are growing. Sad but true, I suppose.
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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Feb 25, 2015 - 02:02pm PT
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anyone see that Chinese rocket booster burn up in the atmosphere
Must'a been made of straw. OH, BodaBing
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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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Feb 25, 2015 - 02:18pm PT
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Complexity = consciousness. You can really tell who the non-technologists are in the crowd.
architecture? protocols? redundancy? Error management? What in the heck are those thangs?
Fun fact: Birds don't have a neocortex - an evolved structure that is similar (albeit simpler in some species) across the mammalian world. This structure is central to higher function like analogous thinking and self awareness.
BUT: Some birds are capable of both analogous thinking (ravens), passing facial recognition (crows) onto succeeding generations, and self awareness (magpies) - without a neo cortex. Anyone who's ever dealt with keas (NZ mountain parrots) quickly realizes that they'd do better on an SAT. Why?
Birds have evolved a totally different brain structure to do the same job.
http://io9.com/5948169/one-way-that-bird-brains-could-be-superior-to-mammal-brains
Architecture! It's not just for neo-modernists!
This leads me to imagine a technological species of birds out there somewhere in the cosmos with nice compact brain sizes. Watch out, Tippy Hedren.
What would the world look like if we didn't need ground transport?
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