Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
monolith
climber
Berkeley, CA
|
|
Yep, some pretty awesome stuff from Ed, Jan, etc.
|
|
Homer
Mountain climber
Santa Cruz, CA
|
|
You folks do rule! Thanks for that.
And perhaps that's the perpetual condition of being human, to always intuit things which our current state of knowledge is incapable of proving.
I get stuck trying to believe it's possible that we can ever intuit the infinite using finite information. I guess I fall into the natural skeptic group.
|
|
jstan
climber
|
|
300 years before christ Euclid, who was living in Alexandria, showed the way. How to proceed from
the known to the newly known. Just think. 2300 years ago he had a better idea of the logical
process than do perhaps 50% of us today.
Where did we go wrong?
|
|
Homer
Mountain climber
Santa Cruz, CA
|
|
Did we go wrong? My thinking tends more towards "how is that right?"
|
|
Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
|
|
jstan-
I agree there's an amazing lack of logic around here. I myself would like to think I can recognize the difference between intuition and logic. However, as Ed has kindly pointed out on numerous occasions, this is not always the case with me either. Hence I keep trying to refine my parameters.
The problem is that intuition gives such a "feeling" of certainty, especially if repeated many times like a mantra, that after a time it comes to seem logical to the intuitive person. Enough Bible quotes, repeated enough times, and finally the unbeliever will have a breakthrough.
However, not every great scientific discovery, especially theoretical discovery, has been made with logic. Many came by intuition first and were shored up with logic and experiment later.
Some important discoveries like the round shape of organic molecules, were even discovered in dreams. The scientist dreamed repeatedly of a snake with its tail in its mouth rolling downhill, and finally woke with the realization that the snake represented organic molecules. Not exactly logical.
Meanwhile, I've come to think that the problem is the way science and math are taught. I personally think at the high school level, the emphasis should be on methodology rather than trying to learn so many facts. Math and Chemistry were ruined for me by rote memorization of meaningless formulas.
If anyone had said to me something poetic like these formulas represent the language of the universe, I would have been much more interested. If someone had said to me, God speaks in mathematics, there would have been no stopping me.
Instead, I'm interested in biology because of my trips to the mountains as a kid, and physics because of Frank and Richard Feynman. I'm also convinced that I would have understood math a whole better if I had been trained on an abacus which is visual, rather than numbers which for me, are not.
For me, as an intuitive person it works best to get the artistic and poetic overview first, and then buckle down to the step by step logic later. Maybe there should be two ways of teaching science and math, not just the dry logical way preferred by professional scientists?
|
|
roadman
climber
|
|
Dare I say that maybe science is too important to our society to be left entirely in the hands of scientists, particularly at the secondary education level? Maybe what science education in America really needs, is more art and poetry, and then the logic would follow?
What? kinda make no cents. Science education is doing just fine. It's where a lot of students are getting the foundation of all science that is evolution.
I'm a very artsy fartsy guy and sci came to me through nature. But, learning about the laws of nature? through art/poetry?
|
|
Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
|
|
I've already changed the wording on that because it occured to me that it would be misinterpreted by the logicians. Of course I didn't mean actual art and poetry, dare I say, literal art and poetry, but the artistic and poetic side of science. It does exist.
For instance, start with a tree, analyze what makes a tree beautiful to the human eye. Ask does the same criteria apply to the survival of the tree. Look at the tree as an entity, then at its individual parts. See what else is living on the tree, then think about ecology as a whole. Then talk about ecology and human interaction. Work in natural selection for both trees and humans. Then look at the physics of trees hanging off sides of cliffs and the chemistry of individual leaves and what happens with acid rain etc. Poetic and integrated science.
There's always time to learn the individual subjects of chemistry, biology, physics in college if the person makes it that far. Meanwhile, they have some idea of how science relates to their life and interests. Otherwise, science is just something that is endured to fill a requirement, and as soon as the final exam is over, the formulas and the logic are left at the door.
|
|
roadman
climber
|
|
Don't get me wrong Jan. I've worked as an evolutionary ecologist and find my peace in ecology and nature, more so than rocks for sure.
Lots of art in evo bio. Like the plants that use sperm and egg to reproduce! I know profs who bust ass to teach evo in a holistic way and make it "stick". It does too. I work with RA's and TA's on occasion who are in tune with nature the the art of life and how we are all changing.
Funny that evolution is simple: a change in gene frequency in a population.
And folks go crazy over teaching it. Most of whom have no idea what it is...
|
|
Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
|
|
roadman-
I don't think the problem is at the university level. The creationist churches are not filled with college graduates. The problem is that students get turned off in high school and never go on. And in the process of being turned off, they fail to learn any logic either.
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
Why is there no intelligent designer?
Everything else in nature is designed by intelligence.
Even the just plain ole sun has incredible intelligence behind the fact that it's seasons and timing attributed to it are always perfect.
Without the sun period there would be absolutely no intelligence period.
Never seen any material elements creating nuts and bolts and parts and magically forming an automobile all by themselves.
|
|
Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
|
|
actually, werner, if you get rid of all that mumbo-jumbo intelligent design shi t then that is just what happened, in the big picture, no? The automobile was assembled by "nature" as we are nature, as is everything else...
...how did that happen? amazing!
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
It did not just "happen", and that's terrible logic, Ed.
You're much better than that.
You're saying that you have no intelligence.
|
|
roadman
climber
|
|
Why is there no intelligent designer?
ummmmm. dude. you have no clue.
DNA,TRNA,MRNA,Virus,etc. try and wrap your intelligent around that.
oh yeah u have no clue...not to intell yer self?
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
You've said that before and now again you're saying nothing at all.
Thus it takes intelligence to even understand DNA,TRNA,MRNA,Virus, etc.
You're stuck in some crazy religion idea ......
|
|
Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
|
|
Oh no !
Here we go again!
Maybe this is hell.
|
|
Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
|
|
if intelligence is defined as something un-natural, then you're right Werner, I'm not intelligent... I'm just dumb matter...
|
|
TripL7
Trad climber
'dago
|
|
"When I admire the wonder of a sunset or the beauty of the moon, my soul expands in worship of the Creator." Mahatma Gandhi
"When I consider Your heavens, the work of Your fingers,
The moon and the stars, which You have ordained..." Psalm 8:3
@1982, The Griffith Observatory invited the public to view this planet that was outside our solar system(I don't recall the specifics). There was a line about a block long when we arrived. The wait was over an hour, and each person could watch for only sixty seconds. It was absolutely incredible. I wanted to stand in line again, but my friends were not so inclined. It was a once in a life time opportunity. I could have "observed" all night!
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
That's true either Ed. You are an intelligent person.
|
|
Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
|
|
The Law of the Lord Is Perfect
To the choirmaster. A Psalm of David.
Psalm19, The heavens declare the glory of God,
and the sky above proclaims his handiwork.
2 Day to day pours out speech,
and night to night reveals knowledge.
3 There is no speech, nor are there words,
whose voice is not heard.
4 Their voice goes out through all the earth,
and their words to the end of the world.
In them he has set a tent for the sun,
5 which comes out like a bridegroom leaving his chamber,
and, like a strong man, runs its course with joy.
6 Its rising is from the end of the heavens,
and its circuit to the end of them,
and there is nothing hidden from its heat.
7 The law of the Lord is perfect, reviving the soul;
the testimony of the Lord is sure,
making wise the simple;
8 the precepts of the Lord are right,
rejoicing the heart;
the commandment of the Lord is pure,
enlightening the eyes;
9 the fear of the Lord is clean,
enduring forever;
the rules of the Lord are true,
and righteous altogether.
10 More to be desired are they than gold,
even much fine gold;
sweeter also than honey
and drippings of the honeycomb.
11 Moreover, by them is your servant warned;
in keeping them there is great reward.
12 Who can discern his errors?
Declare me innocent from hidden faults.
13 Keep back your servant also from presumptuous sins;
let them not have dominion over me!
Then I shall be blameless,
and innocent of great transgression.
14 Let the words of my mouth and the meditation of my heart
be acceptable in your sight,
O Lord, my rock and my redeemer.
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!