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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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MH2
Interesting that you should ask........
I've just finished reading a book called The Fingerprints of God in which all aspects of brain research related to spirituality are covered. Neuro scientists can now tell us that the frontal lobes are related to meditation and quieting the mind, while Pentacostal and Charismatic type phenomena are related to parietal lobe activity on the side. Catholic nuns and Buddhist monks light up exactly the same frontal part of the brain. Catholic nuns and Pentacostal Christians light up different parts.
Meanwhile, Tibetan master meditators, exhibet extra speedy brain waves when not meditating which was a surprise. It turns out they are in a state of hyper alertness without the anxiety usually associated with that state. Also, Pentacostal types exhibet a thalmus which is up to 15% larger on the right brain side. No data on meditators.
And that's only one chapter in the book.
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Catholic nuns and Pentacostal Christians light up different parts.
Yup, looking at the pictures of nuns that some people post on this forum, I'd have to agree that they light up a different part of my brain than Pentacostal Christians.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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"If we had the hypothetical device that could record from all the neurons of Karl's brain during his experience of the spiritual, how would we use the opportunity? What, if anything, could we learn? Could we match up his objectively measured mental activity with his report of his experience?"
They've hooked 15-25 year experienced meditators to eeg machines and established that they can remain aware during the deep sleep delta state. I ca confirm that I can consistently remain aware during this state as well, and that it's a peaceful serene place to be.
Thus, Spirit or no Spirit, our minds can benefit from tending and a discipline which is more (or less) than just more intense thinking. Happiness is within so learning to manage the mind has benefits whether you expect to find spiritual insight or not
Peace
Karl
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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"The point is, it isn't easy to study why the brain likes music."
Psalm 98:4-6, Make a joyful noise to the Lord, all the earth;
break forth into joyous song and sing praises!
Sing praises to the Lord with the lyre,
with the lyre and the sound of melody!
With trumpets and the sound of the horn
make a joyful noise before the King, the Lord!
Ephesians 5:18-20, but be filled with the Spirit, addressing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody to the Lord with your heart, giving thanks always and for everything to God the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ
James 5:13, Is anyone cheerful? Let him sing praise.
Revelation 5:9-10, And they sang a new song, saying,
“Worthy are you to take the scroll
and to open its seals,
for you were slain, and by your blood you ransomed people for God
from every tribe and language and people and nation,
and you have made them a kingdom and priests to our God,
and they shall reign on the earth.”
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Information is not knowledge.
Knowledge is not wisdom.
Wisdom is not truth.
Truth is not beauty.
Beauty is not love.
Love is not music.
Music is the best.
 Frank Zappa
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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No, Catholic girls are easy. ;-)
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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What about little Jewish Princess's?
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Bronwyn
Trad climber
Not of This World
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Ed, I think most people on this thread, myself included, appreciate your posts and take no offense whatsoever.
I am a Christian but I am also a layperson who has studied quantum physics and continues to be fascinated by the subject. I don't think this interferes at all with my faith; I believe that God wrote the laws of physics. I don't think any Christian should be afraid of honest scientific inquiry, and my appreciation for science only deepens my amazement over the complexities of creation.
I was not always a Christian but He used quantum physics and my fascination with the subject to draw me to Him. God does work in mysterious ways, indeed.
I don't need to know all the answers about evolution versus creation. I know I have had and continue to have personal experiences with the God of the Universe, and that relationship satisfies my heart and mind in ways that agnosticism and paganism never did. That is good enough for me.
Keep posting away!
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Ed-
I think maybe you need more pain meds for your back!
Nobody has provoked more serious thought around here than you and 90%+ of us appreciate it. Those who don't appreciate it, can't or don't want to comprehend what you're saying. The rest of us are challenged to think and refine our own positions which is always a good thing.
My father said something very useful to me when I went away to college. "You may not understand even half of what the really good professors are saying but if they're good, you'll still be thinking about them and what they said ten years later and then you may start to understand".
I think you'll find the same with some of us ten years from now.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Karl-
I've been thinking a lot along similar lines lately, especially after reading two good books - The Death of the Mythic God and The Fingerprints of God. The first book details the decline of religion in the West and the second the latest brain research on spiritual experiences. I think they probably represent the past and the future of religion.
I'm thinking that in the future however, all may partake of the methodology of mysticism - the reprogramming of the mind, and it seems also the actual neural circuits and chemistry of the brain, in ways that make people happier and more compassionate.
Those who are secular by disposition will look at it as a rational tuneup and those who are spiritually inclined will see it as an encounter with the Divine. In both cases, the Divine will come to be seen more and more as manifesting within ourselves, and not the outside world.
Once we get to the point of having printouts of our entire DNA, we may even begin to classify ourselves as to variations on the gene which makes us either a natural mystic or a natural skeptic. We may well be asking each other in the future, "what's your gene" instead of "what's your sign"?
Even if we get to that point, we still won't have proved in any scientific sense, the answers to the metaphysical questions of whether or not this universe has a purpose or a consciousness behind or within it. And perhaps that's the perpetual condition of being human, to always intuit things which our current state of knowledge is incapable of proving.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Wonderful Post Jan
I've enjoyed your contributions a lot.
Agree with what you say. I think humans are "evolving" and more and more people are going to act more in harmony with their essential self, whether they realize it or not. More people will have inspirational experiences. One realization leads to another.
Times of transformation bring stress as the traditions give up their cherished dogma slowly but they already have done so partially in the past and will naturally adapt in the future. We're not going backwards..Blatant Slavery is over. Capital Punishment (like how they killed Jesus unjustly) is declining worldwide. Women have rights.
Making ourselves more sensitive aware humans by facing our inner demons, calming our minds, and working on our "stuff" so our hearts will open...that makes scientists happier with no blind faith and helps religious people hear the subtle voice of Spirit rather than their own fears and projections
Peace
Karl
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Psalms 127:1-2, Unless the Lord builds the house,
those who build it labor in vain.
Unless the Lord watches over the city,
the watchman stays awake in vain.
It is in vain that you rise up early
and go late to rest,
eating the bread of anxious toil;
for he gives to his beloved sleep.
1 Corinthians 4:7, What do you have that you did not receive? If then you received it, why do you boast as if you did not receive it?
Matthew 7:24-27, “Everyone then who hears these words of mine and does them will be like a wise man who built his house on the rock. And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house, but it did not fall, because it had been founded on the rock. And everyone who hears these words of mine and does not do them will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand. And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell, and great was the fall of it.”
Hebrews 11:10, For he was looking forward to the city that has foundations, whose designer and builder is God.
Ephesians 2:17-22, And he came and preached peace to you who were far off and peace to those who were near. For through him we both have access in one Spirit to the Father. So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, in whom the whole structure, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord. In him you also are being built together into a dwelling place for God by the Spirit.
Daily Readings from the Life of Christ (vol.1) By John MacArthur
Truth For Life - Pastor Alistair Begg
http://www.oneplace.com/ministries/Truth_for_Life/archives.asp
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MH2
climber
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Karl:
Thus, Spirit or no Spirit, our minds can benefit from tending and a discipline which is more (or less) than just more intense thinking. Happiness is within so learning to manage the mind has benefits whether you expect to find spiritual insight or not
Amen to that.
But be cautious of studies which find increases or decreases in brain "activity" under whatever conditions. There are lots of inhibitory synapses along with the excitatory types. Simply looking for an increase in activity, or a decrease, is considering the brain as a runner, for example, huffing and puffing on an uphill or cruising along a flat. The brain may not be like that. It may be that to work on a hard problem the brain first needs to shut down background noise. People may vary a lot in how efficient their brains are at doing different tasks. Localization has tricky aspects, too. The brain is highly interconnected and modest activity in one small part, whether measured as energy consumption or electrical output, can have large consequences elsewhere.
And vice versa. There is a lot of brain activity in seizure states but not a lot of clear thought.
You need one of these:
Until the End of the World, Wim Wenders director.
But don't let them read your dreams.
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Proverbs 4: Hear, O sons, a father's instruction,
and be attentive, that you may gain insight,
2 for I give you good precepts;
do not forsake my teaching.
3 When I was a son with my father,
tender, the only one in the sight of my mother,
4 he taught me and said to me,
“Let your heart hold fast my words; keep my commandments, and live.
5 Get wisdom; get insight;
do not forget, and do not turn away from the words of my mouth.
6 Do not forsake her, and she will keep you;
love her, and she will guard you.
7 The beginning of wisdom is this: Get wisdom,
and whatever you get, get insight.
8 Prize her highly, and she will exalt you;
she will honor you if you embrace her.
9 She will place on your head a graceful garland;
she will bestow on you a beautiful crown.”
10 Hear, my son, and accept my words,
that the years of your life may be many.
11 I have taught you the way of wisdom;
I have led you in the paths of uprightness.
12 When you walk, your step will not be hampered,
and if you run, you will not stumble.
13 Keep hold of instruction; do not let go;
guard her, for she is your life.
14 Do not enter the path of the wicked,
and do not walk in the way of the evil.
15 Avoid it; do not go on it;
turn away from it and pass on.
16 For they cannot sleep unless they have done wrong;
they are robbed of sleep unless they have made someone stumble.
17 For they eat the bread of wickedness
and drink the wine of violence.
18 But the path of the righteous is like the light of dawn,
which shines brighter and brighter until full day.
19 The way of the wicked is like deep darkness;
they do not know over what they stumble.
20 My son, be attentive to my words;
incline your ear to my sayings.
21 Let them not escape from your sight;
keep them within your heart.
22 For they are life to those who find them,
and healing to all their flesh.
23 Keep your heart with all vigilance,
for from it flow the springs of life.
24 Put away from you crooked speech,
and put devious talk far from you.
25 Let your eyes look directly forward,
and your gaze be straight before you.
26 Ponder the path of your feet;
then all your ways will be sure.
27 Do not swerve to the right or to the left;
turn your foot away from evil.
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WBraun
climber
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This thread is now dead.
All the atheists burned out and went back to hell .......
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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is that where this is...
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jstan
climber
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No. We are just temporarily struck dumb by the transcendent logic above.
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MH2
climber
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We are just temporarily struck dumb by the transcendent logic above.
Ha!
Or someone with a horror of germs obsessively uses hand sanitizer for the brain.
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