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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jul 15, 2014 - 07:55pm PT
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isn't this the Romanticism of Scientism? Not at all. That's just you not weeping for days over the dying Paramecium you walked by the other day or for the inhabitants of some distant planet whose star is running out of fuel. We have limited emotional and empathetic capacity, a very anthropocentric orientation, and tend to care locally (family/community) vs globally.
That, and sufficiently conscious organisms 'care', not the universe. It's like saying the Pacific Ocean should 'care' when a child dies - it doesn't make any sense on so many fundamental levels.
Also, as abortions of distraction go, "Romanticism of Scientism" is right up there with Goldberg's butchering of Wells' thinking from his "Liberal Fascism" speech.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Jul 15, 2014 - 10:48pm PT
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I'm surprised...
my experience with the concussion (which I don't remember) seemed to be that everyone thought I was "conscious" until I couldn't perform a simple, routine task, opening my locker. At that time the coach rightly diagnosed the fact that I was out of it... perhaps you could say I was "conscious" but there were signs that something wasn't working correctly.
but the time before I had my first memory, that's seems pretty obvious, I wasn't "conscious" prior to that, or at least I wasn't having the experience of consciousness. It seems very tortured to claim consciousness and then say that the memory wasn't there... doesn't it make more sense to say that there was no consciousness before 2 or 3 years of age?
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jstan
climber
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Jul 15, 2014 - 11:15pm PT
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Do you suppose the changes in neural wiring that take place after age three might be so large that earlier memories are wiped out? Also it is fairly common for people not to remember accidents and other existential situations. That would also be interesting to understand? Does that loss of memory have survival value?
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Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
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Jul 15, 2014 - 11:35pm PT
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I think my experience with acupuncture showed that the memory was there, but consciousness of it wasn't, until it was somehow unlocked through the use of acupuncture.
Maybe this relates to jstans hypothesis about the networks changing and wiping out, or maybe just overriding, the previous neural network around age 3. In that case, the redirection of energy in acupuncture must have found a different pathway into the earlier network?
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go-B
climber
Cling to what is good!
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Jul 16, 2014 - 07:35am PT
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...will you be gathered together into one with the children of God by believing in Jesus with genuine saving faith?
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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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Jul 16, 2014 - 08:55am PT
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Dead C Scrolls: Found on ST.
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MH2
climber
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Jul 16, 2014 - 09:19am PT
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That issue provoked me to try to remember when I first became conscious of being conscious of myself in a philosophical sense. Who am I rather than I just am. That one is much harder. (Jan)
Jan,
Do remember when you became conscious of the fact that "you are?" Or, was there some change you noticed when you became conscious of who you are rather than that you are?
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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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Jul 16, 2014 - 09:29am PT
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"a man's brain originally is like an empty attic and you have to stock it with such furniture as you choose. A fool takes in all number of every sort that he comes across, so the knowledge that might be useful to him gets crowded out, or at best is jumbled up with a lot of other things, so that he has difficulty in laying his hands on it. Now the skilled workman is very careful indeed as to what he takes into his brain attic. He will have nothing but tools which may help him in his work, but of these he has a large assortment, and all in the most perfect order." - Sherlock Holmes
Would you want to remember every face and gesture of every person you see every day?
It seems we have a 'time to erase' verses 'not really conscious' quandary with regards to our 'how I spent my gestation vacation' stories, here.
Memory isn't the only determinant of whether or not robust consciousness is partying down inside yo infant ass - just it's most persistent one. If you don't remember, were you fully conscious?
Maybe. Maybe not. If we examine the 3 functional components of consciousness - a functional mind, the self, and wakefulness, it seems as though a somewhat functional memory is necessary to achieve the first part - a functional mind, which, after all, depends a lot on memory association to do its thing.
It seems as though wakefulness isn't present in the womb for the most part - sorry, no consciousness cigar there.
A newborn's memory forming equipment is pretty gooey at first - too gooey to support full consciousness, it seems. Their 'self' is also unformed as yet, so that's another strike.
This is a very different scenario than an adult with a short term memory problem - the 'Momento' situation - where short term memory is damaged but the person is otherwise fully conscious and able to make the long term memory associations necessary to support that.
Most people's first memories begin at around 3 or 4 YO. Personally, I think 'womb' memories and such are fabricated after the fact to support an individual's need to somehow be exceptional.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Jul 16, 2014 - 10:22am PT
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very careful indeed as to what he takes into his brain...
Dutch cover of The Ancestor's Tale, by Richard Dawkins.
Beliefs matter.
Quality control of beliefs, too.
New 21st century attitude: Take ownership of your health. Take ownership of your own IOS (inner operating system), just the same. 1) Don't leave it to others. 2) If you don't, who will. 3) Guard it against worms, viruses and other harmful incorporatings.
.....
Out-of-date IOS...
A mind is a terrible thing to waste. Time to upgrade.
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PSP also PP
Trad climber
Berkeley
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Jul 16, 2014 - 10:32am PT
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Tvash said "a man's brain originally is like an empty attic and you have to stock it with such furniture as you choose."
You don't get a choice of what goes into the brain as a child and then how you deal with things as an adult is often influenced by how you learned to deal with things as a child. Meditation is effective to be able to watch this mind that often is reacting in a conditioned way to childhood experiences that still control us.
The meditation potentially enables you to see the conditioning and you have to see it before you can do anything about it. I don't see the philosophizing as an effective tool it doesn't dig deep enough.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Jul 16, 2014 - 10:40am PT
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You don't get a choice of what goes into the brain as a child...
So in my next reincarnation, I just hope it's this... thanks in advance Mom and Dad...
and not this...
Fingers crossed! :)
(a Hindu gesture to Ganesh?)
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Progress!
The God Delusion, by Richard Dawkins, in Arabic.
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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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Jul 16, 2014 - 10:46am PT
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"The meditation potentially enables you to see the conditioning and you have to see it before you can do anything about it. "
I'm not so sure. Choice theory adherents would strongly disagree.
Dragging yourself through your childhood troubles by any means does nothing more than subject yourself to whatever pain your experienced all over again. Pointless, damaging - and often endless. I doubt the meditative analog to psychotherapy produces any better results.
The key is to choose - TODAY - to take a different path and free oneself from early conditioning. Not easy - but it's much more effective than undertaking some voyage of self discovery through memories that are already highly altered and thus inaccurate anyway. Such a 'now' approach shunts the very human propensity of clinging to excuses.
In the end, though, whatever works for you is what works.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Jul 16, 2014 - 10:49am PT
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Or the very human propensity of "dwelling."
Of course a deep irony here is that I often have to "dwell" on life's seamy side as part of my work. But everyday I also imagine a time in the future where people won't have to as much because out of date IOSs no longer exist. Or at least no longer present a major problem either like they did 20-40 years ago in my formative years or like they do today. We can imagine. We can dream. We can hope.
In my next reincarnation, owner of a small surf and scuba shop in Malibu would be nice.
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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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Jul 16, 2014 - 10:52am PT
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You don't get a choice of what goes into your brain as a child?
I remember choosing quite a lot.
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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Jul 16, 2014 - 10:57am PT
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from wiki;
Consciousness is the quality or state of awareness, or, of being aware of an external object or something within oneself.
Consciousness—The having of perceptions, thoughts, and feelings; awareness. The term is impossible to define except in terms that are unintelligible without a grasp of what consciousness means. Many fall into the trap of equating consciousness with self-consciousness—to be conscious it is only necessary to be aware of the external world. Consciousness is a fascinating but elusive phenomenon: it is impossible to specify what it is, what it does, or why it has evolved. Nothing worth reading has been written on it.[20]
i can't find anywhere that sez you need to remember an incident to be conscious of it. i am conscious of the fly that jus landed on my arm, but i prolly won't remember next week. A blind person would be conscious of a fly landing on them, just have a different understanding. So would an Alzheimer patient. So would a baby!
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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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Jul 16, 2014 - 11:01am PT
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Memory association is a necessary component of a functional mind, which is, in turn, a necessary component of consciousness (per Damasio - who's definition, largely based on observation, represents our current state of knowledge as well as anyone's IMO)
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PSP also PP
Trad climber
Berkeley
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Jul 16, 2014 - 11:03am PT
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TVASH said "The key is to choose - TODAY - to take a different path and free oneself from early conditioning. Not easy - but it's much more effective than undertaking some voyage of self discovery through memories that are already highly altered and thus inaccurate anyway. Such a 'now' approach shunts the very human propensity of clinging to excuses."
You can't chose if the conditioning is really strong and you have to look at the conditoning or be aware of it to leave it behind. As you say it is not easy! Meditation makes it easier; it supplys you with a tool to observe, experience and realize the conditioning can be let go.
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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Jul 16, 2014 - 11:28am PT
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Consciousness—The having of perceptions, thoughts, and feelings; awareness. The term is impossible to define except in terms that are unintelligible without a grasp of what consciousness means. Many fall into the trap of equating consciousness with self-consciousness—to be conscious it is only necessary to be aware of the external world. Consciousness is a fascinating but elusive phenomenon: it is impossible to specify what it is, what it does, or why it has evolved. Nothing worth reading has been written on it.[20]
i'd love to hear a real life example of that one.
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