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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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Jul 15, 2014 - 01:27pm PT
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Ed said,
another issue for "consciousness" or "sentience" is the common experience that there is an earliest time that marks our own awareness of those states. we are not aware of being conscious while in the womb, or at birth, or anytime before 2 or 3 years of age...
So if WE don't know what conscious/sentience is. How can you say it is not there at 2-3 yrs, or even in the womb?
From Wiki;
Sentience is the ability to feel, perceive, or to experience subjectivity. Eighteenth-century philosophers used the concept to distinguish the ability to think (reason) from the ability to feel (sentience). In modern Western philosophy, sentience is the ability to experience sensations (known in philosophy of mind as "qualia"). In Eastern philosophy, sentience is a metaphysical quality of all things that requires respect and care. The concept is central to the philosophy of animal rights, because sentience is necessary for the ability to suffer, and thus is held to confer certain rights.
Take the first sentence, Sentience is the ABILITY to do these things. It is NOT these things. It is the ability to experience sensations. Compared to Consciousness/being aware, that things are happening compared to being asleep. When asleep, our brain "turns off" our Awareness and the ability to experience sensations. Aww, except when we dream, when we become aware of experience and are able to feel sensations. So it seems that if we do have consciousness/sentience when we're awake they are still hang'in out when we're asleep. Doesn't that proove that our brain doesn't have to be cognitive(functioning and aware) to be able to raise conscious/sentience?
Dreams, those little movies that take place in our head when asleep. We SEE pictures running thru our head, we can even make decisions within the dream to affect the outcome. Isn't that an Awareness? And we can awake feeling really scared from a bad dream. Isn't that Sentience?
i'm merely trying to show how Conscious/Sentience can be present whether we're aware and using it or not. Getting back to 2-3yro's, they dream, they know they can get what they want by a manipulation through their emotions. IE. They cry, they get bottle. i would say that's Consciousness/Sentience. i would say the same about a newborn. Would you say, that a cell within it's operations of growing,organizing,making decisions,warding off infections,etc.,along with having a memory and a prescribed agenda with tha ability to make changes according to environmental input. Could you say there is a conscious there?
Then there is their ability to adjust mechanically through sensations. Could you call that Sentience?
Can we agree on; a cell is "born" with a prescribed agenda of it's own make-up(map of what it is), and a "map" of what position it will take inside the organism? That said, these "maps" i think we call DNA, come from another living organism. They are delivered Alive. Life didn't appear when the cell matter split, it was always present. And we've already deduced that they are instilled with what they will become, and they feel sensations, so;
Can you say a Cell has a conscious and is sentient??
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Jul 15, 2014 - 01:31pm PT
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the crux of the biscuit?
"You have to understand that in a godless, unguided universe, it wouldn't matter that children are dying"-Richard
http://vimeo.com/100065750
What as a humanist/evolutionist even determines it is bad that some organism is dying at an early age? Do humanists also argue it is terrible that fruit flies have such a short time to live? What about all the aphids that die every day, even as larva? - Richard
"Richard, it does not matter to the universe that children are dying. It matters to us, humans, people. It really is that simple... Aphids and the like have not evolved sufficiently complex nervous systems to suffer to the degree that we do... We have to borrow from our own feelings and reason to make this argument, not the ramblings of our ignorant ancestors."
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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Jul 15, 2014 - 01:42pm PT
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British studies have also shown that fetuses leap in the womb when hearing a familiar soap opera theme song
This is Consciousness/Sentience!
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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Jul 15, 2014 - 01:56pm PT
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But my experience is that there is some age which I became conscious, before which I have no memory of being conscious.
Here you are only describing memory. Because you can't remember crying for your mother's boob, and then became happy. Does not mean you weren't conscious when it happened. And knowing to use emotion and responding to it, shows sentience.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Jul 15, 2014 - 02:30pm PT
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...they know they can get what they want by a manipulation through their emotions. IE. They cry, they get bottle.
they do? maybe it is just a behavior that they are unconscious of, part of the "baby program"
emotions are something we might use to interpret that behavior, so our perception, our "theory of mind" is working here, but that doesn't support your statements.
And you missed my point, the fact is that I cannot recall any experience before some age, probably in the ball park of 3 years old... I'll take a look in my "Baby Book" and get a date... there was one event that I recall some details of and I can associate it with one of the photographs which my mother put a date on...
but before that I'm not aware of an experience of consciousness.
Where did it go?
or where does it come from?
Similarly, being "knocked out" in a high school touch football game, remembering the moment of the play, then "waking up" in the nurse's office with my Mom picking me up... but I apparently walked from the field to the locker room, and not being able to remember my combination lock number, having the coach deliver me to the nurse, all the while appearing to everyone that I was "conscious." I have no recall of that time, yet I apparently behaved as if I were conscious. Perhaps I was, but I am not aware of it..
Where did it go?
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jgill
Boulder climber
Colorado
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Jul 15, 2014 - 03:01pm PT
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It doesn't seem right the universe expanding in all directions at the same speed. Wouldn't that mean there isn't a center? Or starting point?
Think of the surface of an expanding balloon.
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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Jul 15, 2014 - 04:11pm PT
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Fruity
i watched ur vid it was good. Which led me to The Death of Philosophy by Hawking's. i'm sure you saw it. Very enlightening to me for what i'm up against here. i really had no idea before now.
Science can't and refuses to "see" anything coming out of the Philosophy Camp. For obvious reasons, no proof. No material substantiation. Whereas science is poised in their strength by the material substantiation.
so if you can't poke it,or measure it, It don't matter? pardon the pun.
"Richard, it does not matter to the universe that children are dying. It matters to us, humans, people. It really is that simple... Aphids and the like have not evolved sufficiently complex nervous systems to suffer to the degree that we do... We have to borrow from our own feelings and reason to make this argument, not the ramblings of our ignorant ancestors."
Are you saying here that your universe hasn't the ability to care(as far as you know),therefore when children or any other organism go's dead, it wouldn't matter if there was no Caring. Are you suggesting we do away with suffering? Or maybe all emotions? If you can't put ur finger on it, it don't matter, right? Or Life to, no big deal?
Is this what Largo called Scientism?
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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Jul 15, 2014 - 04:35pm PT
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Ed i got ur point.
i tried to illustrate why your example was do to a lack of memory. Not a loss of being conscious/sentient.
Can you remember every climb you've done? i can't. But iknow i was conscious and sentient.
Let me get this straight; have you been conscious/sentient since you were 3+/-? other then when you were knocked out.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jul 15, 2014 - 04:40pm PT
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Are you saying here that [y]our universe hasn't the ability to care(as far as you know),therefore when children or any other organism go's dead, it wouldn't matter...? Exactly. Organisms (hell, likely entire planets and solar systems) come and go every second of the day - that IS living and dying in our universe. It's not a matter of our 'caring', emotions, or beliefs. Our planet could be wiped out tomorrow and the rest of the universe wouldn't bat an eye, skip a beat, or shed a tear and that's pretty much exactly as it should be.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Jul 15, 2014 - 05:27pm PT
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Let me get this straight; have you been conscious/sentient since you were 3+/-? other then when you were knocked out.
I have experienced consciousness/sentience since I was about 3, before that I do not have any experience of being conscious or sentient.
You do get the difference?
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jul 15, 2014 - 05:28pm PT
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...they became intrigued... One should be circumspect of such media-driven, anthropomorphizing projections, and also be aware Dean isn't just a geek, he knows how to sell and market as well.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Jul 15, 2014 - 05:43pm PT
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for the Supernova Ia data and the accelerating expansion of the universe, you can read this account:
http://www.sciencemag.org/content/282/5397/2156.1.full
"Although the nature of the universe was once chiefly the realm of philosophers, in 1998 it seems that cosmology is grounded in data, as visions of distant supernovae revealed the true nature—and perhaps the future—of the cosmos. Scientists and philosophers both will be grappling with the implications for years to come."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accelerating_universe
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Jul 15, 2014 - 05:55pm PT
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Blu, just don't try to "incorporate" it all at once - it can be pretty shocking - esp first time around. Beta: Ease into it. Baby steps.
To this day, whenever I want, I can remember the shock of learning a couple things in particular: One, that the objects seen in my visual field (e.g., face of my mother, the colors of a desert landscape) are not out there in the real world, instead they are (only) mental representations of what's actually out there in matter, em, etc.; two, that we are fully-caused, fully mechanistic beings completely obedient to the physics, chemistry and bioengineering that drive our cellular machinery, tissue, organs, etc.. and yes thoughts and feelings of the mind-brain and all its circuitry as well. Across my science career since Sweet 16, these hit me - BAM! - harder than any other learnings, like there being no God Jehovah any more than God Apollo, no absolute morality, meaning and purpose are what we humans make them, etc..
We can probably see in Largo and others the results of choosing to fight the modern scientific worldview (with all its "demotions" as Sagan called them) instead of choosing to adapt to it. Which narrative or inner operating system eventually will win out a thousand or ten thousand years from now, if any, who can say?
Not a walk in the park, that's for sure.
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cintune
climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
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Jul 15, 2014 - 06:01pm PT
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One should be circumspect of such media-driven, anthropomorphizing projections...
True enough, but it does roughly indicate where things stand. Baby steps compared to a half-billion years of biological adaptation.
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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Jul 15, 2014 - 06:24pm PT
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Exactly. Organisms (hell, likely entire planets and solar systems) come and go every second of the day - that IS living and dying in our universe. It's not a matter of our 'caring', emotions, or beliefs. Our planet could be wiped out tomorrow and the rest of the universe wouldn't bat an eye, skip a beat, or she'd a tear and that's pretty much exactly as it should be.
isn't this the Romanticism of Scientism? To go back before ancient folklore, to a time before evolution started dolling out worthless junk like caring, and suffering. How long ago do you imagine that was? Adam and Eve took CARE of the Garden. And in their betrayal they SUFFERED. That was written before man could even write, so that is folklore. Is it a coincidence that after a couple of hundred thousand yrs, or atleast 30,000 iv'e heard said of how long Man as been walking around. All of a sudden, Bam, Man started caring enough by keeping an account of his actions and services toward one another. Then writing develops just in time for God/Jesus to show up and teach us the definition of Love.
"Love is the Greatest of ALL things"
Man, that sure ain't scientific! should we get rid of it?
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MH2
climber
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Jul 15, 2014 - 06:31pm PT
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from the artificial intelligence paper cintune brought up:
our experimental results reveal that it is possible to train a face detector without having to label images as containing a face or not.
Which is one way to answer a question such as, "What is 'face'?" The program has an answer to the question but can't define what face is other than by examples, doesn't know how it got the answer, and probably doesn't assign the label "face" to its answer.
Sound familiar?
But if they hook that network up to Watson we may never hear the end of it.
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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Jul 15, 2014 - 06:31pm PT
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Thanks Ed, i'll read'em tonght
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MikeL
Trad climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
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Jul 15, 2014 - 07:42pm PT
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Ed: . . . before that I do not have any experience of being conscious or sentient.
I think you mean you have no memory of consciousness before that time. For all you know, you could be God that's lost his or her memory and is stumbling back towards full realization.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
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Jul 15, 2014 - 07:43pm PT
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If I understand you right Ed, your personal definition of consciousness is really awareness of your own existence which is based on your memory of when it happened? That issue provoked me to try to remember when I first became conscious of being conscious of myself in a philosophical sense. Who am I rather than I just am. That one is much harder.
Meanwhile I once had the interesting experience with acupuncture and memory. I had already had many sessions when I didn't even feel the needles going in. That time however, it felt like a corkscrew was being twisted into my back at a certain place.
That night I had dreams of injuries at age two which were confirmed by my mother. My previous memories only went back to age 3. So again the question of memory and consciousness. Personally, I wouldn't say I had extended my consciousness back to age two, only my memory of a specific event.
That event had to be in my memory storage the whole time, but I did not remember it until after the treatment. Why on earth I became conscious of it after a needle was inserted in a particular place is even more mysterious, but I later learned that many other people have had similar experiences with acupuncture. I'm also sure there is a physical explanation for it but I have no idea what.
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