The New "Religion Vs Science" Thread

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jgill

Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
Feb 21, 2015 - 07:36pm PT
Ever get down to Dixon Springs, Joe? I'd drive up on weekends 1964-67.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Feb 21, 2015 - 09:16pm PT
John, I'm of one of generations of SoIll climbers you spawned by coming through. I got there in '74 and you had inspired a bunch of mainly cavers to start climbing more with your visits. Those guys climbed moderately but did it all over SoIll exploring pretty much every rock down there. We did hit up Dixon Springs a couple of times, but we pretty much settled in at Giant City State Park in Makanda where everything we touched was an FA and eventually got good enough to start putting up some pretty hard lines.

Never would have happened if it weren't for your trips through SoIll, though, so thanks!

John in Dixon Springs


My old partner Jim Tangen-Foster on 'Fear of Flying' in Giant City in '76


Good times. May try to get back there this fall - been way, way too long...

BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Feb 21, 2015 - 09:22pm PT
Thanks MikeL.

Please note that “evolution” used here simply means change. It doesn’t necessarily mean better or even more complex. However, that is how most people think of the word “evolution.” It’s only a theory.

sure, it denotes change. And so is the weatherman when he speaks of weather. Is that evolution too? The spew around the water-barrel is that it's the movement of rocks combining into Earth and constructing consciousness. Randomly ofcourse?

So is it change by chance?

and i am talk'in bout Life here.. and Not mutations of Asteroids.

Seems dealing with matter, there is a certain, cause-n-effect determination! With the Law's of gravity over weight, and such..

But when it come's to Life. All of a sudden there's "'Chance'" and "'Randomness'"???

Shouldn't there be a different type of "'Evolution'" meaning for the universe prior to "Life'? "Than what's considered as the 'Evolution {OF} Life'"?

Was there Natural Selection before there was Life



paused


*disregard* different thought*
When an Atmosphere converges allowing the construct of Fire, and flowing Water, along with the ability to freeze or become steam.

We atleast know now that fire and flowing water have been introduced into the Universe for a little while now! IF they weren't already reconciled??

So take Mars. It's had it's certain 'Evolution'(BTW, i use the ' instead of the ", only because it despenses of the shift key);'/ till today. lol. So conjurning with what we know. If we influenced Mars to the Atmospereic stability to accept fire and flowing water. Would Life emerge? If it did. That would certainly be a change. Would that be a different type of evolution



kinda Jus Josh'in in Josh
BB

BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Feb 21, 2015 - 09:54pm PT
^^^ditto Dingus!!!
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Feb 21, 2015 - 10:02pm PT
Cools pics healyje. Pretty cool to be chatting about the nature of it all with the good natured jgill, eh?

Dingus, yeah, given we missed him by seven years BITD, I have to say it's pretty cool ST provides the opportunity to say thank you some 40 years later. He spawned generations of climbers and a shitload of amazing climbs from those few visits.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Feb 21, 2015 - 10:07pm PT
He spawned generations of climbers from those visits.

Amen.


so, wouldn't that be Environmentpursuadinggenomes?


A type of Evolution
Norton

Social climber
quitcherbellyachin
Feb 22, 2015 - 01:17pm PT
is gravity still "only a theory"?

or has it been proven to be a......fact yet?
PSP also PP

Trad climber
Berkeley
Feb 22, 2015 - 01:25pm PT
Total projection's about Mike L.; recall just recently he said he is a skeptic about everything (similar to the scientific method)

I was thinking about your solo walkabouts for extended periods of time in vast wildernesses. Very similar to meditation retreats where the structure of the environment (time and space) is conducive to be able to see your dialog and realize it is only dialog not the actual thing.
WBraun

climber
Feb 22, 2015 - 01:35pm PT
I believe in the scientific method. It isn't dogma. The scientific method, when properly used, has no agenda. No dogma is allowed.

yes true.

But you yourself have an agenda.

You don't know all the different scientific methods.

Only your own dogamtic egotistical narrow minded ridged methods are thrown out every time you post your rants .....
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Feb 22, 2015 - 02:22pm PT
Who's "The Cynical Turd"?

Watch this important piece from Bill Maher (Fri nite) and find out...

[Click to View YouTube Video]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IlRgQ0YK24I

Thank goodness we don't have any "cynical turds" at supertopo.
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Feb 22, 2015 - 02:41pm PT
Yeah, Werner, I've been spending way too much time here. At some point it becomes downright unhealthy.
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Feb 22, 2015 - 02:52pm PT
Re: sentience and behavior - I would entirely and strenuously disagree. Sentience is behavior and a behavior which scales directly with the abilities / facilities of any given organism for all forms of life.


A common mistake - to posit sentience entirely as a practical function related to "doing," or carrying out some biological task.

You might better understand this by broadening your scope to include the "being' part of the equation, as in human being, or conversely, to limit the scope to raw awareness.

A sponge might be "aware" in the sense that it can respond in real time to certain stimulus and "remembers" in terms of stimulus response. But the sponge is not capable of observing these responses - and whenever observing takes place, we can no longer - and for obvious reasons - clump observing and the thing that is observed in the selfsame container.

Nor yet can we separate them in any ultimate way.

But again, there are many aspects of sentience and awareness that are not disclosed through a narrow focus on people, places, things and phenomenon. Anchoring awareness in things and only things is what our discursive mind does for us. In this mindframe, there is no "I" that takes issue with a competing idea. There is only fusion to the discursive. To wit - the trance.

JL
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Feb 22, 2015 - 05:02pm PT
There is no 'mistake' about it. We'll simply have to agree to disagree.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Feb 22, 2015 - 05:44pm PT

A sponge might be "aware" in the sense that it can respond in real time to certain stimulus and "remembers" in terms of stimulus response. But the sponge is not capable of observing these responses - and whenever observing takes place, we can no longer - and for obvious reasons - clump observing and the thing that is observed in the selfsame container.



By "observing", do you mean strictly visually? Cause blindfolded, i can observe the heat from a candle being held under my hand. Awareness? And if i didn't remember how much the pain grows with time, i might not move it. Sentience?

So if a sponge can remember a stimulus response and act accordingly in the future over a life-or- death circumstance. Wouldn't that be considered sentience managed?

Or is the dividing line for Sentience is differentiated between organism's with both bodily senses and emotional feeling's, and those only with sense's?

i'll bet a cheeseburger no sponges are watching the Oscar's tonight!
cintune

climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
Feb 22, 2015 - 06:16pm PT
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Feb 22, 2015 - 06:24pm PT
Maybe the explicits of NS has much to do with Science-Vs-Religion?


Natural selection is the gradual process by which heritable biological traits become either more or less common in a population as a function of the effect of inherited traits on the differential reproductive success of organisms interacting with their environment. It is a key mechanism of evolution. The term "natural selection" was popularised by Charles Darwin, who intended it to be compared with artificial selection, now more commonly referred to as selective breeding.

Variation exists within all populations of organisms. This occurs partly because random mutations arise in the genome of an individual organism, and these mutations can be passed to offspring. Throughout the individuals’ lives, their genomes interact with their environments to cause variations in traits. (The environment of a genome includes the molecular biology in the cell, other cells, other individuals, populations, species, as well as the abiotic environment.) Individuals with certain variants of the trait may survive and reproduce more than individuals with other, less successful, variants. Therefore the population evolves. Factors that affect reproductive success are also important, an issue that Charles Darwin developed in his ideas on sexual selection, for example.

Natural selection acts on the phenotype, or the observable characteristics of an organism, but the genetic (heritable) basis of any phenotype that gives a reproductive advantage may become more common in a population (see allele frequency). Over time, this process can result in populations that specialise for particular ecological niches and may eventually result in the emergence of new species. In other words, natural selection is an important process (though not the only process) by which evolution takes place within a population of organisms. Natural selection can be contrasted with artificial selection, in which humans intentionally choose specific traits (although they may not always get what they want). In natural selection there is no intentional choice. In other words, artificial selection is teleological and natural selection is not teleological.

Natural selection is one of the cornerstones of modern biology. The term was introduced by Darwin in his influential 1859 book On the Origin of Species,[1] in which natural selection was described as analogous to artificial selection, a process by which animals and plants with traits considered desirable by human breeders are systematically favoured for reproduction. The concept of natural selection was originally developed in the absence of a valid theory of heredity; at the time of Darwin's writing, nothing was known of modern genetics. The union of traditional Darwinian evolution with subsequent discoveries in classical and molecular genetics is termed the modern evolutionary synthesis. Natural selection remains the primary explanation for adaptive evolution.


i Wonder who's more teleological; Religion or Science??
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Feb 22, 2015 - 06:50pm PT
I'll agree with Elaine. This thread is not sponge worthy.

So being 'sponge worthy' implies a finite amount of material interceptors proving an limited amount of times one can have protected penetration without procreation, thus an inkling to be selective?

otherwise, one could say it worthy that every penetration in that certain week of every month is procreatalicious!

or maybe you jus meant that this thread should be procreated?

Anyheewww, Tim Mccraw's performance of Glen Cambell's "i'm not gonna miss you" tonight on the Oscar's is deffinitely SPONGE WORTHY and should be procreated!
MH2

Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
Feb 22, 2015 - 07:10pm PT
I'll agree with Elaine. This thread is not sponge worthy.



Elaine is aware of this thread?
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Feb 22, 2015 - 09:53pm PT
WOW!

i have to say after watching the Oscar's, The evolution of the black man is way more important to America's heritage than any iphone, or Mars mission.

Congrat's to Oprah! who might be running it all.

also a bow to Birdman!!


MikeL is right in that there is mostly delusional distrations
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Feb 23, 2015 - 10:29am PT
A most excellent post, covering several items, by Jerry Coyne...

http://whyevolutionistrue.wordpress.com/2015/02/23/in-which-i-help-deconvert-someone-and-on-what-works/

"read Gerenser’s whole piece (it’s short), because he traces the roots of his apostasy back to the very virtues instilled in him by his religious parents, including a love of reading and having the courage of one’s convictions."


Note that, thanks to ISIS and Islam, millions more today know the terms "apostate" and "apostasy".
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