Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
Flip Flop
Trad climber
Truckee, CA
|
|
Jan 30, 2015 - 08:54am PT
|
You religious guys need to go love yourselves. Hopefully with a thorny cross.
|
|
rmuir
Social climber
From the Time Before the Rocks Cooled.
|
|
Jan 30, 2015 - 10:32am PT
|
I just mentioned it as a fun fact. That is all.
Balderdash and poppycock. You hoped to ally your canted biblical worldview with that of a man of science and letters. You, of course, never counted the number of books John Muir owned about botany, geology, Roman history, biography, or poetry. You have an agenda and you were looking for fodder to feed your fixation.
Muir owned a few bibles, sure. But an inspection of the extent library shows that many of these were New Testements, and not collections of pre- and antediluvian mythologies. Please don't attempt to fantasize about, or simplify Muir's complex and subtle religiosity to suit your own beliefs.
Muir was decidedly NOT a Calvinist. He memorized the Bible because he had to "endure" his father's literalist dictates, and avoid beatings as a child. It's unlikely he would have done so if his mother had played a greater role in his upbringing, and if Daniel hadn't been such an unreasonable and overbearing fundamentalist. (And we all know what a fundament is…) There is almost nothing in Muir's history to indicate that he an old-school, Old Testament believer in such things as Lucifer, prophetic invasions of celestial aliens, or any of the other nonsense that you posit.
Muir found evidence of God in nature and in science, and not in the weird interpretations of ancient collections of early Hebrew consonants.
|
|
Klimmer
Mountain climber
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 30, 2015 - 03:01pm PT
|
Jan 30, 2015 - 10:32am PT
I just mentioned it as a fun fact. That is all.
Balderdash and poppycock. You hoped to ally your canted biblical worldview with that of a man of science and letters. You, of course, never counted the number of books John Muir owned about botany, geology, Roman history, biography, or poetry. You have an agenda and you were looking for fodder to feed your fixation.
Muir owned a few bibles, sure. But an inspection of the extent library shows that many of these were New Testements, and not collections of pre- and antediluvian mythologies. Please don't attempt to fantasize about, or simplify Muir's complex and subtle religiosity to suit your own beliefs.
Muir was decidedly NOT a Calvinist. He memorized the Bible because he had to "endure" his father's literalist dictates, and avoid beatings as a child. It's unlikely he would have done so if his mother had played a greater role in his upbringing, and if Daniel hadn't been such an unreasonable and overbearing fundamentalist. (And we all know what a fundament is…) There is almost nothing in Muir's history to indicate that he an old-school, Old Testament believer in such things as Lucifer, prophetic invasions of celestial aliens, or any of the other nonsense that you posit.
Muir found evidence of God in nature and in science, and not in the weird interpretations of ancient collections of early Hebrew consonants.
rmuir,
You seem to be very upset by the fact your famous relative was a man of faith and a man of science. You seem to want to distance yourself from his faith and discount it anyway you can. Sorry you can't. John Muir is who he is.
It was a fun fact. And it did prove my point.
Title:
The Spiritual Lives of Great Environmentalists: John Muir, Calvin DeWitt
Journal Issue:
Electronic Green Journal, 1(24)
Author:
Johnson, William Ted, Scottsdale Public Library
Publication Date:
2006
http://escholarship.org/uc/item/1835687g
Spirituality
It seems unanimous that John Muir was among the world’s most important
environmentalists. While many factors and events from his childhood to his
accident causing temporary blindness undoubtedly influenced his choice to
concentrate on “God’s inventions rather than man’s,” our focus is on his
spiritual views. John Muir’s expressions of spirituality cannot be separated from his actions to preserve wild places. His spirituality and
environmentalism went hand in hand. They were inseparable. By focusing on
his spirituality, we have the best chance to understand his conservation
ethic. However, we must exercise great care so as to guard against dressing
Muir in our own cloak of spirituality. Like anyone else, Muir believed what he believed because of how he was raised, the time in which he lived, what he read, heard, and experienced. In the end, Muir’s own words shed the most light on his spirituality like his actions revealed his environmental
commitment.
Childhood
Born April 21, 1838 in Dunbar Scotland to Daniel Muir and Anne Gilrye, John
Muir was their third child and eldest son. He attended Dunbar’s common
school taking the usual subjects of instruction such as Latin. Additionally,Daniel Muir required his children to study the King James Bible, including the memorization of lengthy passages. When it was all said and done, John knew by heart all of the New Testament and 75% of the Old Testament. He participated regularly in the training and activities of the local religious community, such as church services and his overall thirst for knowledge was unquenchable (Miller, 2005). In 1849 Daniel brought his three oldest children to America. The rest of the family followed once a homestead had been established in the Wisconsin wilds.
Actions of Faith
No longer under his father’s direct influence, in 1861-62 while at the
University of Wisconsin at Madison, he often visited and preached to Union
soldiers at the state fair grounds, urging them to avoid temptation and live the Christian life. He was known around campus too as one eager to share his faith (Miller, 2005). In order to give something away, you must first be in possession of it. John Muir’s efforts to share his faith suggest that he was actually in possession of such a faith to begin with.
A Thousand-Mile Walk to the Gulf
Two thousand years ago our Saviour told Nicodemus that he did not know
where the winds came from, nor where they were going...
John Muir just referenced the NT.
My First Summer in the Sierra
This quick inevitable interest attaching to everything seems marvelous until the hand of God becomes visible; then it seems reasonable that what interests Him may well interest us. When we try to pick out anything by itself, we find it hitched to everything else in the universe. (p. 60)
A vailed reference to the Book of Exodus (OT) when the actual hand of G-d was revealed.
My First Summer in the Sierra
I feel sure I should not have one dull moment. And why should this appear extravagant? It is only common sense, a sign of health, genuine, natural, all-awake health. One would be at an endless godful play and what speeches and music and acting and scenery and lights! - sun, moon, stars, auroras. Creation just beginning, the morning stars "still singing together and all the sons of God shouting for joy." (p. 98, 100)
Referencing the Book of Job in the OT.
We can go on and on through Muir's writings and see the direct influence of the Bible from the OT and the NT.
Read the complete research article above. It's very good. I provided the link.
John Muir was a man of faith, and a man of science, and a man who shared his Christian faith with others. And the memorizing of the entire Bible (or nearly so) influenced his writings, both from the OT and NT. How could it not? His love of G-d's creation and the right desire to protect what G-d has made is an absolute inspiration to so many people around the world including me.
And April 21st is a great day for a birthday ;)
|
|
dirtbag
climber
|
|
Jan 30, 2015 - 04:24pm PT
|
This is important, Sheeple!
|
|
rmuir
Social climber
From the Time Before the Rocks Cooled.
|
|
Jan 31, 2015 - 09:47am PT
|
You seem to be very upset by the fact your famous relative was a man of faith and a man of science. You seem to want to distance yourself from his faith and discount it anyway you can. Sorry you can't. John Muir is who he is.
Oh dear. You are, indeed, a self-deluded fool. Nothing could be further from The Truth™…
Muir has been dead for about one-hundred years, and so he's not here to defend himself. He was a Christian, like me, but whether he was a "Christian" like you is a decidedly different question. The faith system in which you believe—as so clearly expressed in this thread and others—is fundamentally distant from John Muir's. You seem to want to draft him for your team, but you're not even in the same league.
Believe what you will. Just don't project or impose your phantastical beliefs on others without objective, fact-based, historical evidence.
As I sit here looking out over the Crystal Range of the Desolation Wilderness, I think about the man who wrote about this area in his journal of Sept–Oct, 1878. I am in the midst of transcribing his handwritten scribbles into plain text for the Holt-Atherton Special Collections Library—his original words. So, I think I've a got reasonable measure of the man.
John Muir is who he is.
You may pretend you know who he is, but I have a much better idea about who he was—ideas grounded in evidence.
Go back to arguing about the fall of the Age of Man, the certainty of Lucifer, aliens on the Moon, and how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. We're sure that you know all the answers… Without a doubt. As foretold in prophesy.
Van Belle pretty-much nailed it.
|
|
Tvash
climber
Seattle
|
|
Jan 31, 2015 - 10:02am PT
|
I got a kick out of Muir's Early Rising Machine. I mean, who does that?
Interesting cat.
Now back to the Salt Lick for Crazy Channel.
|
|
Klimmer
Mountain climber
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 31, 2015 - 07:20pm PT
|
There is almost nothing in Muir's history to indicate that he an old-school, Old Testament believer in such things as Lucifer, prophetic invasions of celestial aliens, or any of the other nonsense that you posit.
Muir found evidence of God in nature and in science, and not in the weird interpretations of ancient collections of early Hebrew consonants.
rmuir,
I certainly don't know all the answers, but I'm certainly willing to look and be open to new evidence and new information in regards to the answers.
You have made some serious erroneous claims regarding Muir's faith. I'm just pointing out that you're wrong and you don't like that fact.
I never said Muir believed in aliens, (heck we've only come to know these things for certain recently, and have been asking who are they? and why are they here?) you've somehow tried to claim that I have.
But I can prove he believed in the whole Bible, The Tenahk (OT) and the B'rit Hadasha (NT) and he did indeed believe in lucifer, satan, the devil or whatever name he is known by throughout The Bible, and he even made reference to the devil in his very public famous writings and testiomony before congress. And yes he believed in Angels too. I've already shown he made reference to the Angels at the beginning of creation, as told in the Book of Job. Why wouldn't he? He believed the whole Bible in its entirety and not just bits and pieces like some people.
He was in many ways a Bible scholar, a Prophet for G-d's created wilderness that is full of natural beauty and that shows forth the characteristics of G-d, The Creator and The Master of The entire Universe, or Universes if you so desire.
http://vault.sierraclub.org/john_muir_exhibit/life/defense_of_wildlife_fleck.aspx
In 1867, two years after the close of the Civil War, Muir set out on foot to walk from Indiana south to Florida in order to botanize and observe wildlife. When he arrived in northern Florida, he was struck by the totally callous attitude of people for alligators:
"Many good people believe that alligators were created by the Devil, thus accounting for their all-consuming appetite and ugliness. But doubtless these creatures are happy and fill the place assigned them by the great Creator of us all. fierce and cruel they appear to us, but beautiful in the eyes of god. They, also, are his children, for He hears their cries, cares for them tenderly, and providers their daily bread."
There are so many paraphrases from the Bible in the above JM quote, and he does indeed speak of The Devil, (I like to say the devil, little d). And he even alludes to satan's descriptions from The Good Book, ... he has an all consuming appetite and seeks to devour those people who are unwary and unprepared ... he is described as a monster and dragon in The Good Book too. G-d does indeed care for all his creation and not one will fall without him being there (all NT).
http://historymatters.gmu.edu/d/5720/
His testimony before congress to save Hetch-Hetchy ...
"Nevertheless, like anything else worthwhile, from the very beginning, however well guarded, they have always been subject to attack by despoiling gain-seekers and mischief-makers of every degree from Satan to Senators, eagerly trying to make everything immediately and selfishly commercial, with schemes disguised ..."
JM knows the antics of satan very well indeed, and compares Senators and others to him.
That anyone would try to destroy [Hetch Hetchy Valley] seems; incredible; but sad experience shows that there are people good enough and bad enough for anything. The proponents of the dam scheme bring forward a lot of bad arguments to prove that the only righteous thing to do with the people’s parks is to destroy them bit by bit as they are able. Their arguments are curiously like those of the devil, devised for the destruction of the first garden. . . .
These temple destroyers, devotees of ravaging commercialism, seem to have a perfect contempt for Nature, and, instead of lifting their eyes to the God of the mountains, lift them to the Almighty Dollar.
Dam Hetch Hetchy! As well dam for water-tanks the people’s cathedrals and churches, for no holier temple has ever been consecrated by the heart of man.
I'm pretty sure JM knew lucifer, satan, the devil (or any other name the Bible (OT and NT) uses to describe this fallen angel), is a very real evil entity and in fact knew a considerable amount regarding his evil attributes very well, and could make appropriate comparisons to bolster his public arguments.
rmuir,
I would have to say that you have really ignored the true depth of your famous relative's faith in G-d, and JM's complete trust in His Holy Word.
Perhaps you should do an exhaustive study throughout all of JM's writings and see how often he paraphrases, quotes, alludes to The Holy Bible, G-d's Holy written Word. And not only that he uses very good cleverly written arguments from The Word of G-d to bolster his own arguments and descriptions of nature around him. I think if you did a study like that you would be stunned. Your Christian faith in turn would grow deeper.
I personally would love to see a study done like this. It would put JM in a more accurate and newer light. Kind of like what has happened to Sir Isaac Newton recently. We now know Newton's writings on G-d, faith, and spiritual matters far out weigh (in mass literally) his incredible scientific writings and discoveries.
|
|
Klimmer
Mountain climber
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 31, 2015 - 08:39pm PT
|
Now, you all must have heard recently in the media that after countless FOIA requests our US government has finally released "Project Blue Book" in its entirety.
Although I recall someone well known who was on that original study team, The Condon Report looking into Project Blue Book, and had come-out a while ago to say it was a white-wash designed to dismiss UFOs and had a bias from the beginning or had the directive to cover-up. This same individual had come out to say that some UFO sightings and phenomenon are indeed the real-McCoy and we do not know who they are. We are indeed being visited by something off Earth that has technological abilities far beyond ours.
(Edit: that someone is Dr J. Allen Hynek, who went on to set-up a scientific research group that studied UFO phenomenon, The Center for UFO Studies. Obviously he didn't buy into Project Blue Book or The Condon Report's white-wash findings.
Yes, he is a controversial figure. He was willing to step out of the accepted orthodoxy and look into things people have a knee jerk reaction to dismissing.
http://www.csicop.org/si/show/the_secret_life_of_j_allen_hynek/ )
Well it's got to have some interesting reading non-the-less ...
National Archives - Unidentified Flying Objects - Project BLUE BOOK
http://www.archives.gov/foia/ufos.html
US Air Force Times - Project Blue Book
http://www.airforcetimes.com/story/military/tech/2015/01/17/air-force-ufo-files/21812539/
Project Blue Book: US Air Force UFO documents revealed
http://m.bbc.com/news/magazine-30943827
Air Force UFO files land on Internet
http://www.cnn.com/2015/01/20/us/feat-air-force-ufo-project-blue-book/
Project Blue Book Archive
http://bluebookarchive.org/
Sad story behind the scenes ...
http://projectbluebook.theblackvault.com/
http://www.disclosureproject.org/access/es-testimony-that-explains.htm
Lt.Col. Charles Brown: US Air Force (Ret.)
"It is sort of strange but we send people to prison, we send people to their death because of eyewitness accounts of crimes. Our legal system is based on that to a large degree. Yet in my following of unusual aerial phenomena for the past 50 years, there seems to be some reason to discredit very viable and very reputable witnesses when they say something is unidentified…
"I do know that there are agencies of our Government that can manipulate data. And you can create or recreate [whatever you want]. Craft, intelligently operated craft, have basically violated our laws of physics on this planet. And they have done that for a long time. The fact that the Government at this point — I know we have been investigating since 1947 — has not come up with an answer, to me indicates that there is something seriously wrong. Are we this incompetent in science? I don’t think so. Are we this incompetent in intelligence? I know we are not this incompetent in intelligence. Now, Project Blue Book, when it was closed by Dr. Condon’s group, I have every reason to believe that this was a total deliberate whitewash….
"UFOs have been investigated for an extended period of time and the general public is not being made aware, fully aware — but are given only bits and pieces, programmed responses and things like that."
Behind the scenes history of Project Blue Book, and its bias and agenda:
http://www.ufocasebook.com/bluebook.html
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Project+Bluebook
Project Bluebook
The last publicly acknowledged USAF investigation into UFOs, which started in March 1952. Its aims were to find explanations for UFO sightings, to assess whether they were a threat to national security, and to determine if the UFOs used advanced technology from which the US could learn. Reports were collected, analyzed and filed according to their results. No-one noticed anything was wrong with the project until one of the people on the investigation team sent in his own sighting. It was filed, but when he wanted to refer back to his report, it had disappeared. He then alleged that any reports that were both unexplained and could cause public uproar were siphoned off out of Blue Book to somewhere else higher up in authority, a claim that ufologists now see as fact. Blue Book was wound up in 1969 as a result of the Condon Report and one of its investigators, Dr J. Allen Hynek, went on to form the first scientific based UFO group, the Center for UFO Studies, in 1973.
|
|
BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
|
|
Jan 31, 2015 - 10:50pm PT
|
Klimmer i thought your 7:20 post was really great.
i'd like to hear your write on The John Muir Project!
could be a perspective the world needs?!(!?)
Bluebook?
well, i am the blue blocker
|
|
rmuir
Social climber
From the Time Before the Rocks Cooled.
|
|
Juxtaposition can ofttimes help illuminate things…
Ob aliens: (heck we've only come to know these things for certain recently, and have been asking who are they? and why are they here?) and
He was in many ways a Bible scholar
I'm sorry, but you wouldn't know scholarship if it hit you upside the head with the 1848 Strentzel family Bible. Nor would you recognize any subtle use of poetic license, literary allusion, or metaphor…
Really. We're just done here.
Wallow in your peculiarity, Klimmer, and enjoy the Rapture. You'll be missed when you're gone.
|
|
Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
|
|
I had a friend whose uncle was a colonel who worked on Project Blue Book when it was still
classified. He told my friend "I can't tell you anything, but if I did you wouldn't believe me."
|
|
Phantom X
Trad climber
Honeycomb Hideout
|
|
"And so it came to pass that John Muir, for no good reason, deliberately crashed the space ark into the moon"- The Bible. Then what happened?
|
|
Lorenzo
Trad climber
Portland Oregon
|
|
Funny, the insurance report claims the moon backed into his ark.
|
|
bvb
Social climber
flagstaff arizona
|
|
The gift that keeps on giving.
|
|
Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
|
|
Post # 3000!
There's gotta be some kind of mystical significance.
|
|
BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
|
|
the winning number was three thousand+1
|
|
bvb
Social climber
flagstaff arizona
|
|
Hey Klimmer, serious question: is G-d a girl or a guy? Is the universe partiarchal or matriarchal?
|
|
healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
|
|
Klimmer - that you think we are a veritable intergalactic Greyhound station is pretty much the definition of fantasy and indicates you lack even a faint grip on the reality-based implications of time, space, energy, gravity, friction, materials and / or [atmospheric] aerodynamics.
And the bizarre co-mingling of your entirely bent versions of both science and religion don't pass even the standard Comic-Con Wizard test. I mean, just how is it people arrive at places like this, scientology, People's / Solar Temples, Heavens Gate, and other twisted and cult interpretations of science and religion?
|
|
Gnome Ofthe Diabase
climber
Out Of Bed
|
|
Ghost Getz Post# 3 thousand!
Three thousand cheers ! this thread rocketed to stardom . . .
How far can you go in space in five years of time?
Fast or slow it must take you out of orbit.
this thread started in 2010 - five years!?
Stick a fork in it already, it's done.
Healyje, For the win!
Cork to stopper the bottle!
You can not put the gienie back in the lamp,
But you can stopper the bottle
1 ? is she a he or he a she if the entity's designation matters? She is both male and female?
There is always one in every crowd, and a fool to point it out ,
well that makes two in every crowd . . .
Must be why they call a group of crows a Murder.
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|