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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago
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Jan!
Jesus said not to get drunk, He didn't say you couldn't have a glass of wine. Obviously wine has its benefits such as for digestion. He would have been a hypocrite for making wine if otherwise. And I believe He wanted the people at the wedding to enjoy themselves, it was a requirement back then and a staple used at every meal.
Now days if a Christian is seen holding a can of beer anywhere they are labeled especially by other Christians. I drove up to Mammoth were I had lived for ten years, to ski and visit friends during the mid 80's. One of my good friends asked me to help shovel snow one day(a very well known person in the these parts). Along with three other very good friends that would be instantly recognised here(first ascents on El Cap etc). Well after we finished a long days work he showed up with a six pack of talls. We were all dehydrated. He tossed one to me and whats the big deal, I popped it and guzzled a few swigs...OK I guzzled the whole damn thing and begged for another one. Just kidding!! Well anyway I drank most of the one beer and when I get back to L.A. another friend of ours(My roommate) already has heard that I was downing multiple beers etc. It wasn't true. I simply drank 3/4 of a beer.
That is pretty much the standard in civilization today. What can I say. Certain Preachers started dictating the law and it gave a bad name to the church. There is allot of self righteousness going on that's for sure. I think most people know when they are doing something they shouldn't be, without somebody else sticking there nose into things.
Kind of reminds me of Jesus and the lady they were going to stone to death for adultry. Jesus said "He who is without sin, let him cast the first stone". And then I believe He started to write the ten commandments on the ground. The oldest left first because they had broke more of the commandments. One by one they left with their heads hung low until only she was left. There needs to be more of that today.
Like I said earlier, we didn't say prayers at all in school, but we could speak about God if we chose, the only time I recall doing so is when I wrote that essay, and that was because I was giving my honest interpretation of how I felt God had His hand on things here in America, I sure didn't say it was perfect, like I said it was largely about the equal rights of all mankind, regardless of color.
I was fortunate to grow up in an area of San Diego that was were there wasn't a majority. Like I said my best friends were black white and Hispanic and I had a couple oriental friends. My forth and six grade teachers where black-men. Think about it. How many white kids do you know with that experience. Mr. Cain, my sixth grade teacher was the biggest influence/role model of my whole life next to my father. I was class president the first half of the year, and a best friend a black kid was for the second half.
I was talking about how America was as far as the first half of the century compared to the last half of the century, or the seventies on.
Drugs were pretty much none existent until the mid to late sixties. And I did my share. Juvenile crime, killing disobedience towards parents(less than fifty% have two parents) and authority figures. Life in general Drugs are a scourge on this country. But hey, if it feels good do it. Look at all the gangs, drug cartels supplying America...com-on Jan. Things were far from perfect, they were never going to be but look at the early 60's compared to today.
Trip~
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago
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Jan!
I just wanted to add, perhaps you remember the Michael Farmer killing in Central Park NYC 1959. It was all over the news, Life magazine etc. for months back then.
Michael Farmer was white crippled kid who was killed by a gang of young Puerto Rican kids. They stabbed him to death for kicks. M.F. lived with his mother/no father. It shocked the country. He was stabbed over seventy times.
Well today something like that would not even make the local front page news. Let alone national and magazine front page day after day. It happens everyday some where in America.
BTW a pastor by the name of James Wilkerson wrote a book about how God called him to drop his cushy life time position as Pennsylvania country pastor. And go and reach the very kids in prison and in the gangs on the streets of NYC. He lived in his car(it was winter when he got there) and his wife and daughter had to move in with her parents for years.
The book is called "The Cross and the Switchblade". It was eventually made into a movie staring Eric Estrada. That shows the miracle intervention of God through one man changing kids lives from heroin addicted thugs to productive citizens. You should check it out.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Speaking of hard-to-believe creation myths, the idea of the Big Bang starting creation always seemed fanciful. Now maybe it could be responsible for THIS universe, but even in a universe where time and space are relative and interrelated, there is still still enough linear time for trillions of googles of years to have elapsed for other universes to have come and gone.
And in fact, how can we even conceive of there being ANY beginning to it all, what before that.
That's why there's at least one more rational thing about some mystical views of the eternity of God. That Time is really an illusion which comes into being as God dreams the universe. There is no ultimate beginning or end because it arises from outside of time.
Think about it
Peace
Karl
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago
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Karl-"My post was directed at Base104".
OH! Sorry.
Actually I havn't read them all either.
As if anyone cares.
Peace!
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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"It is an absolute fact that creation has purpose and design by intelligence. Not because some books says so, not because some scientist says so."
Or atheist that say's no!
Amen, brother!
Edit; Any monkey knows that!
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Karl, your concept of space and time are quite quaint and very limited.... where does space-time come from at all? and does it exist without what we see around us?
Maybe the universe is much stranger than you think, and maybe that strangeness is even understandable.
It is a lot more interesting than any creation myth passed down to us from our past. Funny how that has authority, "the wisdom of the past" when we knew a lot less, and a lot more.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Ed wrote
"Karl, your concept of space and time are quite quaint and very limited.... where does space-time come from at all? and does it exist without what we see around us?"
Tell us what science conceives about time before the big bang Ed. Where are we heading a trillion trillion years from now? As long as you have any material in the universe, it seems there is some form of time, perhaps measured by atomic decay or the frequency of energy.
In a dream that manifests in an infinite consciousness, time isn't so constrained. It's a whole different ball game. Still, forget that and just explain about what science imagines. Are we at the obvious point yet where science admits that there may have been 100s of big bangs, universal expansions and contractions over the course of a google years?
The few billion we have any idea about are obviously chicken-feed don't you think?
peace
Karl
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WBraun
climber
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Religion is so puzzling. Which one is right?
None of them.
All of them.
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WBraun
climber
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I think science wins out.
Pure mental speculation. You don't know.
Guessing gets one nowhere.
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WBraun
climber
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Nope
You're just guessing again.
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago
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Base104-"we like the Jews so that they can rebuild the Temple and then go to hell when Christ comes back".
Actually, first 144,000 Jews during the Tribulation are going to become modern day radical evangelist. And then after the Temple is rebuilt, the Antichrist is going to demand that he be worshiped as God in the Temple. At that time(about half way through the Tribulation/3.5yrs) is when they(Jews) will realise that Jesus was the true Messiah and they will flee Jeruselem for the hills and be supernaturally hidden there until Christs return with His saints. And they(Jews) along with the people that get saved during the Tribulation(tens of millions)will repopulate the earth for the next 1,000,000 years.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Come on 777, that sort of speculation is based on just one wacky interpretation of an apocalyptic book at the end of the bible that almost wasn't included in the councils that threw out some scripture and included others. Again many scholars believe it referred to the current times at 90am, not some future time when things get crazy
Christ will probably return as an Iraqi and be thrown in Gitmo. The status quo religion folks didn't honor him when he came last time and he preached reform. I'm sure he'd preach reform if he came again and what status quo guys are embracing reform now?
Peace
Karl
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WBraun
climber
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You just told me ......
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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You just told me ......
So when are you going to tell me, Werner? And Ed? I asked what I thought was a reasonable question a couple of pages back, but so far no comment. Lots more one-liners about other things, but no thoughtful answer...
?????
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago
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Brian Hench-"Bronwyn, many of us are born with a built-in spirituality, a need to believe in God".
Actually we all are "Also He has put eternity in their hearts..."
This refers to a deep seated compulsive drive to transcend our mortality by knowing the meaning and destiny of the world. Because we are made in the image of God we have an inborn inquisitiveness about eternal realities. We can find piece only when we come to know our eternal Creator(The Prince of Peace). God has put eternity in the heart of all mankind.
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Studly
Trad climber
WA
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Ghost, I read your post and to me it seemed like you answered your own question. Both can be correct, it is the great mystery.
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago
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Karl!
The first time He came as the lamb to be slaughtered(sacrificed).
The next time He is coming as a Lion. He said so Himself in the Gospels an the Old Testament along with Revelation.
EDIT: As The Lion of Judah!
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Well, no. I mean yes, it is a great mystery, but no, I don't have any answer.
Other folks, on both sides of the argument, are pretty adamant that their answer is the correct one, so I was curious to hear what they'd say. So far, that's nothing.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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What's the question?
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WBraun
climber
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So when are you going to tell me, Werner?
hahaha
I can't tell you anything, as I myself know absolutely nothing at all.
But .... God is proven scientifically for anyone with good brain.
And it does not take any so called scientist, Christian, Muslim, Hindu, or any so called rubber stamped secretarian sect to do so.
Even a simple child can understand ......
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