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WBraun
climber
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It is an absolute fact that creation has purpose and design by intelligence".
It stands, roadman, there's absolutely nothing you can do to change that.
You can write, argue, juggle words around, say anything you want and still you can't defeat that fact.
If you try, you will fail, and I guarantee it.
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roadman
climber
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I guarantee it.
good job! improved. new #1 for today
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago
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Karl-"no post over three paragraphs is read".
To begin with I have been up since you went to bed last night.
And two when 5 people are asking you 5 questions each every ten minutes just try and keep up Karl!!
And I type about 15 w0rds or less a minute!!!
And I have read every post up to yours to which I am now responding!
EDIT: Actualy I have read almost all and I am very tired and I am just calling it quits.
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Jennie
Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
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I agree Santa is a fake, Norton. Santa Claus mythology is absolutely despicable during the Christmas season. I vote for getting rid of Santa imagery. Let's have Loch Ness Monster figurines and Valkyries with battery powered wings ...... although Bigfoot cast in milk chocolate would be much more American !
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Brian Hench
Trad climber
Anaheim, CA
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Bronwyn, many of us are born with a built-in spirituality, a need to believe in a God. It's why god(s) exist. It's not clear where or how this trait, this part of humans, but it is facinating. There isn't really evidence for it in other animals, or is there?
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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So, two questions. One question for Werner, or anyone else who is certain that something or someone intelligent designed this complicated universe. And one for Ed or anyone else who points back to the Big Bang as the correct explanation.
For the first group: As I understand it, the reasoning is along the lines of "it's way too complicated to be random, so it therefore had to have been created by some intelligence." Werner put it as clearly as anyone when he said above "Lay all the parts on the table and it takes intelligence to put them together. A retard and/or idiot can't do it. It doesn't happen by any random accident." Given that this is correct -- and I'm not saying it isn't correct -- Where did that intelligence come from? Did it just spring out of nowhere one day? Did it "always exist"? And where did it get the matter to create everthing? Where was all that matter before God (or the Flying Spaghetti Monster or whatever) turned it into what we have now?
Now, for the second group: Given that the scientific evidence of a Big Bang, and the evidence of evolution are correct -- and again, I'm not saying it's not -- What happened before the Big Bang? If all the matter in the universe exploded out of some super-compact mass, where was it before that?
As far as I can tell, neither "God made it" nor "It was created in the Big Bang" does anything except bump the real question one stage further back.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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The commercialized Santa of modern America is a fake, but there was an actual St. Nicholas who lived in Asia Minor in the 6th century who was known for his charity. His birthday is Dec. 6 which is when many Europeans give their gifts, not on Christmas which is a religious holiday.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 4, 2009 - 07:18pm PT
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or, modern humans are hard wired with the will to rise to the top of the
food chain, and with the tremendous will to survive.
The very thought of all that struggle simply ending in nothingness,
it too unbearable to believe in, so we created the concept of an afterlife.
This can be seen as far back as 20,000 years ago when humans buried
their friends and family with personal artifacts, no doubt wishing
that whatever happened to the dead, maybe they could use some of the stuff.
This long time hardwired desire to not accept the finality of death
is the birthplace of and the reason why, humans later created organized religions.
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago
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Skipt!
Yes, Dionysus, Bishop of Alexander in the third century determined that it was written by "John the Elder". He felt that the language, style and thought of Revelation was different from the writings of John.
Although the earliest witnesses in church history such as Justin Martyr in the 2nd century Ad.(100's) agreed that the apostle John authored Revelation. And many others came to the conclusion that the author wrote with apostolic authority that was recognised at that time. And furthermore that striking parallels exist between the Gospel of John and his 3 epistles and Revelations.
I am sure there is good arguments towards both. Whats important is its Its authenticity, which I am sure of and that it is a Revelation of Jesus Christ. I believe the Bible as it came to be for the last thousand or so years is exact as God(who has all the power to do this)meant for it to be. I don't spend allot of time in Rev. Daniel and Isaiah and the New testament cover similar prophecy.
Thanks for pointing this out.
Sincerely, Trip~
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 4, 2009 - 07:23pm PT
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I was not talking about "Santa", but rather "god".
Go back and re read, and substitute god for Santa.
And you have the same "belief" system children are taught.
When children are NOT taught by adults that a Santa or a god is real and exists,
those children do not have to bother with those concepts.
They can live and die just fine, without santa or god stories.
They are not born with sin that they have to be saved from by organized
religious rituals.
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Jennie
Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
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I was just jesting, Norton.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Triple 7-
I'm old enough to have gone to public schools in Texas where prayer was offered every day and it's not the solution to anything, except that it makes the adults feel good. We mumbled our way through the Lord's Prayer and the Pledge of Allegiance every morning and unless a child also had training at church or home, no kid could explain what any of it meant. It was just a rote saying.
The pledge by the way, did not include the words "under God". These were added in the late '50's in response to the Cold War, just about the time you think the country started going downhill.
I might add that back in the good old days of school prayer, we also went to segregated schools and churches. The whites had a big brick school with all the amenities and the Blacks had a one room school with an outhouse in the back. I can guarantee you there were far worse periods in American history than today, particularly if you were a member of an ethnic minority.
Meanwhile, the people of Texas still live with the hypocritical legacy of Bible thumping religion. How many people have died in auto accidents because they had to drive to the next county to buy alcohol? All the while the smug religionists tell you that they believe in the Bible literally until it comes to Jesus turning water into wine. That's a mistranslation. Everyone knows it was Welch's grape juice.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 4, 2009 - 07:44pm PT
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Jennie, you had me worried there. Sorry, for assuming otherwise!
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Bronwyn
Trad climber
Not of This World
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Skip, all I was trying to say was not to confuse the character of God with the dogma and behaviors of the Catholic Church. That's all.
Guess I got a bit too quick and impassioned with the typing.
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nutjob
Trad climber
Berkeley, CA
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This is my first click in this thread, thought I would hop in and see what was worth 3000+ posts. Carry on.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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After a bit of extra research, it's plain that there is room for debate on the authorship of the book of Revelation even though the language style and words used differ from the Gospel of John (the authorship of which is also in dispute since it doesn't claim to be written by John. (the title was tacked on)
But we should forget the book of Revelation for now, the best scholarship points to the conclusion that it was referencing event current at the time, not 2000 years in the future and both Jesus and his followers were plainly expecting the big bang within a generation.
Not to mention, the horrible track record of so many preachers naming dates for Christ's returns based on some "scientific" accounting from Revelations. Much crow has been eaten.
777 wrote
"Karl-"no post over three paragraphs is read".
To begin with I have been up since you went to bed last night.
And two when 5 people are asking you 5 questions each every ten minutes just try and keep up Karl!!?
My post was directed at Base104, who wrote a big post that nobody responded to. Giving him a hard time (but admit that I still didn't read it) Too much time wasted on the topo for me.
But I did read his post regarding "How you treat the least among you" and thought that was a gem which reflected the heart of Christ's teachings. If believers and atheists would embrace more of that, we'd have a better world
peace
karl
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nutjob
Trad climber
Berkeley, CA
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Werner sayeth:
It is an absolute fact that creation has purpose and design by intelligence".
The part I latch onto most readily is: What created the natural laws which we have observed and documented in the fields of chemistry and physics? Maxwell's equations, laws of thermodynamics and kinematics and optics, etc. What created the conditions that resulted in the Big Bang?
I'm no fan at all of organized religion. I do believe that simple processes operating in an environment with simple rules can produce something of immense interest and complexity. Just doing experiments with cellular automata and reviewing the classic icons of Chaos theory is enough to show that. You can extrapolate evolution and self-organizing concepts into this framework.
But the fact that there is gravity, electricty, magnetism, strong & weak forces, that shape the interaction of quarks into atoms, into molecules, into cells and coded instructions for proteins with regulatory switches affected by other instructions and environmental inputs, into organisms with reasoning capacity and billions of neurons, which create systems that can research, document, and aggregate an increasing pile of accumulated knowledge across generations.... well to me this is simply miraculous and cause to believe in a higher power.
And like, I'll bet the dude who created the natural laws which humans have observed and categorized as "Maxwell's Equations," well that dude must have gotten 1600 on his SAT.
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nutjob
Trad climber
Berkeley, CA
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WHen you are an engineer troubleshooting a problem, you can quickly determine whether or not you have the necessary skills to address the problem.
In the case of Creation, I know I don't have the skills to solve the root problem. I just know that whatever created the natural laws of our universe that we have observed, well that represents structure, organization, something beyond nothingness, and beyond that, I cannot comprehend it. I further believe that no human can comprehend it, and anyone who claims to have these answers and tries to convince others to follow their way of thinking is a huckster.
That said, I see nothing inherently wrong with creating a code of rules for harmonious living in society, and providing a source of faith and hope for folks who can't operate without it.
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