Wings of Steel

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Elcapinyoazz

Social climber

Joshua Tree

Oct 12, 2011 - 06:22pm PT

What I think is missing from your (Deuce and Powerglide 300) "natural line" analysis is "Intent".

When you start a line that you can actually see (the layman's defition of a "natural line"), the presumption and intent is that you will be able to get up it with minimal drilling, etc.

When you start a line that is clearly blank of features and does not constitute what a layman would call a natural line, the presumption/intent is that you will certainly be drilling and know that before you ever embark on your little adventure.

The end result may be similar, but if end result was all that mattered we wouldn't have 1st degree murder, 2nd degree, manslaughter, involuntary manslaughter, etc. Intent matters.

deuce4

climber

Hobart, Australia

Oct 12, 2011 - 06:44pm PT

Not sure if intent can be differentiated. Consider each team's "bag of tools" (drills, bolts, rivets, chisels, etc) upon leaving the ground.

The point of the two eras is significant though. Standards aren't static.

With the notable exception of Gerberding's routes, the standard of "naturalness" of new El Cap routes in the 90's was often on the low-end.

WBraun

climber

Oct 12, 2011 - 06:51pm PT

Wings of steel is a forced line.

Too many holes and smashed heads in only what is it about 9 pitches.

Totally stupid.

Look at the Nose, Salathe, NA, west face etc.

That's why they're classics.

After that comes debauchery.

Yer all goin to hell for this debauchery .....

Oh wait a minute, .....

You're all already there in hell ....

donini

Trad climber

Ouray, Colorado

Oct 12, 2011 - 07:08pm PT

Right on Werner!

deuce4

climber

Hobart, Australia

Oct 12, 2011 - 07:52pm PT

icaro

Trad climber

Los Angeles, CA

Oct 12, 2011 - 08:22pm PT

"if its a choice between eternal hell and good tunes.. or eternal heaven and New Kids on The Fu#king block... Im gonna be surfing on the lake of fire rocking out, high-fiving satan evertime i pass him on the fu#king shore." - Bill Hicks

Da_Dweeb

climber

Oct 14, 2011 - 10:02am PT

Mighty Hiker - It's Khan, the villain from Star Trek II engaged in a rousing game of Where's Waldo.

An appropriate metaphor. Nice find, Yo.

kunlun_shan

Mountain climber

SF, CA

Oct 17, 2011 - 11:22pm PT

R&I finally arrived in my mailbox this evening and I just finished reading the WOS story. Very well written article, Ammon!! Am glad someone finally managed to get up the whole route and check things out. It only took 30 years, (and with modern gear) - says something about Mark, Richard, Ammon and Kait :)

Mike Bolte

Trad climber

Planet Earth

Oct 17, 2011 - 11:39pm PT

Kait: Here are some photos of our second ascent of WOS. Thought it would compliment the article to put these out for everyone to view. Cheers!

I can't believe that Mighty Hiker of all people wrote that second sentence.

I was a well written article. Nice job by the pirate. WB is right that the line was forced, but the difficulty of the line is pretty hard to deny now.

EDIT: ah

Mighty Hiker

climber

Vancouver, B.C.

Oct 18, 2011 - 12:13am PT

Umm, I didn't write it - Kait did. I was merely cross-posting.

bergbryce

Mountain climber

South Lake Tahoe, CA

Oct 18, 2011 - 01:07am PT

I searched like hell to find a copy of R&I. Enjoyed the article up the end... Ammon seemed to be giving some minor props throughout, saying the natural features were used well, the hooking was mentally challenging, etc. The last Bridwell quote being applied to the route however, killed my enthusiasm a bit.
Bridwell said and Ammon applied it to Wings of Steel... "I wouldn't recommend it to my worst enemy".
So basically it was a pile?

I thought the article was well written and am stoked another party finally got up the route. As others have mentioned, there are still unanswered questions.

Isn't A3+ similar to 5.9+ from a certain era? You don't know what exactly it's going to be like, but you're pretty sure it's going to be difficult?

Transmission

climber

Dallas, TX

Oct 18, 2011 - 01:35am PT

Any line you can't or don't free-solo is "forced".

Da_Dweeb

climber

Oct 18, 2011 - 01:58am PT

Bridwell said and Ammon applied it to Wings of Steel... "I wouldn't recommend it to my worst enemy".
So basically it was a pile?

Greetings, Bergbryce!

That quote initially threw me for a loop, too. I wondered if that was what he was saying at first glance, but it seemed incongruent with the nods he gives the route. When I considered it in the context of the rest of the article, I came to interpret it as a reference made to the psychological trauma inherent in the ascent of the route. From my reading, Ammon seemed to be up front about the fact that the route was something of a psychological crucible. Plugging this into the Bridwell quote, I believe he was referring to the fact that he would not wish that kind of psychological strain on his worst enemy, as opposed to calling the route a pile.

(Ammon, Kait, please correct me if I'm wrong on any of that.)

bergbryce

Mountain climber

South Lake Tahoe, CA

Oct 18, 2011 - 02:12am PT

Plugging this into the Bridwell quote, I believe he was referring to the fact that he would not wish that kind of psychological strain on his worst enemy, as opposed to calling the route a pile.

I can see that perspective too and would be interested in knowing which it is.

deuce4

climber

Hobart, Australia

Oct 18, 2011 - 02:37am PT

I always perceived that quote of Bridwell's as a warning that it's hard and gnarly but not necessarily aesthetic.

Big walls in general are the kind of deferred fun that Csikszentmihalyi discusses in his flow theory.

http://www.deuce4.net/web/climberMotivation.pdf

Da_Dweeb

climber

Oct 18, 2011 - 04:57pm PT

Damn, Deuce. Thanks for posting this study.

I’ve only had the chance to look into it for about an hour, but it’s already apparent that Csikzentmihalyi’s the fecking master bard of leisure research. The way he describes Flow not only immediately calls the concept to mind, but actually puts me in that state for as long as I reflect on it.

... in the flow state, action follows upon action according to an internal logic that seems to need no conscious intention by the actor. He experiences it as a unified flowing from one moment to the next, in which he is in control of his actions, and in which there is little distinction between past, present and future. (Csikszentmihalyi: 1975,
p 36)

I’m also seeing what you mean regarding the Bridwell quote and Flow Theory, and it also provides a theoretical explanation for why the route hasn’t seen much repeat.

...both the experienced climber and the novice will become anxious, as predicted by the Flow Theory, when the task exceeds the skill level available. The more experienced the climber the more
probable it is that s/he will avoid such a situation.

Main focus seems to be the nature of shifting motivations for rock climbers over 40 freaking years as both the climber and their enjoyment of the sport mature and shift over time. Largely from extrinsic factors - such as gaining the approval and acceptance of other climbers – to the intrinsic – such as self-satisfaction and personal fulfillment.

This progression is gradual and is an internal process of the individuals themselves. It is not an externally driven mechanism controlled by social forces but rather an internal mechanism powered by the individual’s experiences and observations. Those individuals who do not internalise the enjoyment and rewards of rockclimbing soon cease the activity.

It’s interesting also how the authors mention that as this maturation shift occurs there’s generally an increase in the range of aspects and types of climbs a climber enjoys.

The longer an individual participates in an activity the more enjoyment develops from participation. This "learning" process assists in developing the internalisation of rewards from extrinsic to intrinsic, permitting rockclimbing to be enjoyed for all of its aspects: the exciting and adventurous; the difficult and challenging; the calm and relaxing.

I’ll have to go back and delve deeper into the article after class, and maybe have a look at Csikszentmihalyi’s prior study about the tie-in between rock-climbing and the pursuit of self-actualization, and how rock climbing can be a means through which to pursue it.

jfailing

Trad climber

Lone Pine

Oct 18, 2011 - 05:02pm PT

When Bridwell first said that, wasn't about that route Bushido on HD?

I saw a feature on it in one of the mags (maybe Alpinist?), that had a brief story of the route, written by Bard. They suffered somewhat, the route was hard, the route was dangerous, but the line didn't seem nearly as forced as WoS.

Don't know necessarily how to interpret Ammon's using of the line... Then again, don't know exactly how to interpret Bridwell's using either...

Da_Dweeb

climber

Oct 18, 2011 - 10:15pm PT

Greetings, Jfailing.

Apparently we've got a thread here on Supertopo that gives some good information and a topo on Bushido.

http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=673612

Ed Hartouni posted this reference:

Half Dome. In October Dale Bard and I did a new route on the northwest face of Half Dome. The route is on the right side of the face. The first 900 feet followed a huge arch with very awkward, strenuous, loose, expanding aid climbing. The upper part required many holes (105 total). Dale, who has done all the routes on Half Dome’s northwest face, said this route was certainly the most difficult. The climb required eight days of continuous climbing, with four pitches fixed. The route is extremely steep, strenuous, and dangerous, with no retreat possible.
NCCS VI, F10, A4+.

JAMES D. BRIDWELL

So clearly, we're looking at what Bridwell himself considered a very difficult and dangerous line. Given that, if Ammon meant the quote the way Bridwell meant the quote, I believe it's much more likely he's referring to the difficulty and innately technically and psychologically demanding nature of the climb.

Mind you, I'm also not trying to draw a comparison between Bushido and Wings of Steel here, in fact I believe this is a key point. WoS was a climb of the great slab on El Cap, whereas Bushido was a climb on an overhanging wall of HD. I do not think a valid comparison between the "forced"ness or naturalness of the line can necessarily be quantified given the inherent differences between the two climbs.

Regardless, Bridwell's quote, much like Ammon's use of it, seems to me to reference the overarching theme of demand and difficulty (as presented in Bridwell's commentary on Bushido, likewise in Ammon's article about WoS), as opposed to being a jab at the route or the style in which it was put up.

What do you think?