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Klimmer
Mountain climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 28, 2015 - 09:45pm PT
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Jan 28, 2015 - 12:20pm PT
Trivia Question:
By the way, how many Bibles did your famous relative John Muir own?
A lot. I think about 13. If I remember right.
And you pulled this number from where? Based on your rather shaky grasp on reality evinced by your previous propositions, again, we'd better see a citation. A citation based on fact.
When John Muir died in 1915, his entire collection of books fell to his daughters. An unpublished inventory of his estate, prepared by his daughters, Wanda and Helen—evidently for probate purposes—listed, shelf-by-shelf, the volumes in the second-floor room of the "Big House"—now known as the Muir-Strentzel Home—which Muir used as a study. In this inventory, there were approximately 1,600 books; Helen took 280 volumes to her home in the Mojave Desert at Daggett, and the remainder stayed with Wanda and Thomas Hanna who, eventually, moved the books and bookcases to their new residence of Dr. Strentzel's old home about a mile from Muir's estate in Crockett.
After Wanda died, the library was transferred to her five children (principally, Richard Hanna), and these books were deposited at the Holt-Atherton Library in 1970. Hanna's collection of Muir's books was eventually donated to the Huntington Library in 1973.
Not all of the books on the 1915 list were acquired by Muir. Part of the library came from his wife's family, the Strentzels. John Strentzel's wife, Louisiana, had a strong religious (Methodist) bent and collected tracts, hymnals, and other pieties which were added to the bookshelves. At least eighty such books must have come from this source.
While not all of these books could be considered part of his working library, at least 350 had little practical or literary interest to Muir. Most all of the books in Muir's collection were acquired after 1880, once home, family, and wealth made it possible for him to read and store such a collection.
Many more details about John Muir's book collection can be found at http://www.pacific.edu/Documents/school-college/centers/john_muir/Fall2003.pdf
Even if you are correct that Muir "owned" thirteen bibles (which is questionable), this would not be surprising given the Victorian age in which he lived. Even so, this would be much less than one-percent of his collection. Not a lot.
Of course, your mention of this "Trivia Question" is a blatant attempt to insinuate that Muir ascribed to your bizarre, aberrant, and, frankly, batshit biblical hokum, and that his mention should lend some kind of imprimatur to your weird, self-delusional reinterpretation of the Bible. For all of Muir's apparent religious underpinning, his beliefs were grounded in Romanticism, Naturalism, and the New England Trancendentalists such as Emerson and Thoreau; his earlier religious ascription was decidedly New Testament, at best. John Muir's outlook was most certainly NOT that of a harsh, old-testament, anti-literate, fundamental Calvinist preacher like his father, Daniel. And you don't get to put on John Muir's mantle to bolster your views…
If you think that Muir's ownership of a few bibles means that he thought like you, then I've got a massive ark on the Moon to sell you.
rmuir,
I just mentioned it as a fun fact. That is all. I'm not saying he thought there a was a massive spacecraft on the backside of the moon near "Isak D" crater. How would he know? Lol.
Yes, John Muir was a believer of the Calvinist persuasion or otherwise. He also made mention many times in his writings that he at one time had memorized The Bible entirely (I can't imagine doing this personally), under the very strict direction of his father. I'm pretty sure he meant Old Covenant and New Covenant. They go together. You can't fully understand one without the other. The fact that he was a man of faith and he believed the Word of G-d, is fact, and that it flowered his prose is very well known. We all known that.
He was a man of faith and a man of science. He proved that the Sierras were sculpted by glaciers, and that Yosemite Valley was sculpted by glaciers and not a cataclysmic earthquake with the valley floor dropping out from below. His understanding of glaciology was at the time, due to his direct observations, was far advanced of many in the field of geology including that of Josiah Whitney (head of the California Geological Survey). An infamous argument regarding the origins of Yosemite Valley I mentioned above comes to mind with Muir being correct. He was a man of faith and a man of science, another example, in the long line of founding fathers of modern science, who were all men of faith and men of science: Copernicus, Tycho Brahe, Johannes Kepler, Galileo, Newton, and yes to some degree we can even place Einstein in the list, since it can be argued he was a Deist, but had a Judaic upbringing when he was young, talked about G-d often even in his public writings, and he was enamored by Rabbi Yeshua, Jesus Christ, later in life.
Perhaps you forgot about this thread on ST, that you did post to that keeps popping up around April 21st, (well at least it did 2010 and 2011. I need to bump each each year, and haven't in a while. Mybad?):
http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/1147931/The-Annual-Celebration-of-John-Muir-s-B-Day-and-Earth-Day
This link lists the Bibles he owned and its in the thread and a few of us discuss it ...
At the time I counted 13 Bibles. The original link I used isn't working anymore but the one another poster who made it first known to me, his link still works ...
http://www.librarything.com/catalog/JohnMuirLibrary&tag=bible
http://www.librarything.com/catalog/JohnMuirLibrary
http://www.librarything.com/profile/JohnMuirLibrary
Once again at the time I counted 13 bibles in a pdf listing his personal books he owned that this collection had.
From wiki:
"Geological studies and theories
Pursuit of his love of science, especially geology, often occupied his free time. Muir soon became convinced that glaciers had sculpted many of the features of the valley and surrounding area. This notion was in stark contradiction to the accepted contemporary theory, promulgated by Josiah Whitney (head of the California Geological Survey), which attributed the formation of the valley to a catastrophic earthquake. As Muir's ideas spread, Whitney would try to discredit Muir by branding him as an amateur. But Louis Agassiz, the premier geologist of the day, saw merit in Muir's ideas, and lauded him as "the first man I have ever found who has any adequate conception of glacial action."[23]
In 1871, Muir discovered an active alpine glacier below Merced Peak, which helped his theories gain acceptance. He was a highly productive writer and had many of his accounts and papers published as far away as New York. Muir's former professor at the University of Wisconsin, Ezra Carr, and his wife Jeanne, encouraged Muir to put his ideas into print. They also introduced Muir to notables such as Emerson, as well as leading scientists such as Louis Agassiz, John Tyndall, John Torrey, Clinton Hart Merriam, and Joseph LeConte.[citation needed]
A large earthquake centered near Lone Pine, California in Owens Valley (see 1872 Lone Pine earthquake) strongly shook occupants of Yosemite Valley in March 1872. The quake woke Muir in the early morning and he ran out of his cabin "both glad and frightened," exclaiming, "A noble earthquake!" Other valley settlers, who believed Whitney's ideas, feared that the quake was a prelude to a cataclysmic deepening of the valley. Muir had no such fear and promptly made a moonlit survey of new talus piles created by earthquake-triggered rock-slides. This event led more people to believe in Muir's ideas about the formation of the valley."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Muir
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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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Jan 28, 2015 - 09:48pm PT
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loved the moon vids.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 28, 2015 - 10:08pm PT
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Dude, are you even remotely aware that you are deranged? Off-the-hook unhinged? Batshit crazy? I hate to be so blunt, but hey. You are a way, way fringe dude.
BVB,
Yes we true believers are a peculiar people ...
1 Peter 2:9 (KJV)
"[9] But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:"
http://www.gotquestions.org/peculiar-people.html
But as the article teaches that isn't a bad thing (as you think) but a good thing. We are a people of G-d. And so can you or anyone else be. Salvation is for free you can't buy it. It's free for everyone. You just have to sincerely believe and ask for it. Trust in HaShem Adonai Elohim, through his Son Yeshua HaMashiach and you will be saved. It's Supernatural. It's a G-d thing. It's truly as simple as that. Salvation G-d made very easy to understand, even a child can get it. He did that on purpose. So many can be saved.
The deeper mysteries of G-d are another thing. But Salvation is the start ...
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Lorenzo
Trad climber
Oregon
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Jan 28, 2015 - 10:18pm PT
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I will address Lucifer's history, and how it is key to understanding what is happening now and soon to be in our near future.
Can't wait. Make sure you have bible passages to quote.
The name appears once in the entire King James translation, and is pretty clearly a translation error. It's a reference in Isaiah to an honorific title of Nebuchadnezer comparing HIM to the morning star ( The planet Venus) when he was defeated by Cyrus the Assyrian.
“How you have fallen from the heavens, O Hĕlĕl, son of the morning! You have been cut down to the ground, you who laid low the gentiles! (Isaiah 14:12 ISR98)
Hĕlĕl Just means Morning Star:
Lucifer (/ˈluːsɪfər/ lew-sif-ər) is the King James Version rendering of the Hebrew word הֵילֵל in Isaiah 14:12.[1] This word, transliterated hêlêl[1] or heylel,[2] occurs only once in the Hebrew Bible[1] and according to the KJV-influenced Strong's Concordance means "shining one, morning star".[2] The word Lucifer is taken from the Latin Vulgate,[3] which translates הֵילֵל as lucifer,[Isa 14:12][4][5] meaning "the morning star, the planet Venus", or, as an adjective, "light-bringing".[6] The Septuagint renders הֵילֵל in Greek as ἑωσφόρος[7][8][9][10][11] (heōsphoros),[12][13][14] a name, literally "bringer of dawn", for the morning star.[15]~~wikipedia
and in the KJV:
How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! (Isaiah 14:12 KJV)
Read it. There are no other references to the name Lucifer. No fallen angels, nothing. That stuff was invented centuries after the canon was laid down.
Isaiah just has the fall of the king of Babylon as the fulfillment of a prophesy in Daniel. Pretty good prophesy except that both books were written after the fact.
There aren't even any references to the Devil, only DEVILS in the plural, and then only four times.
Satan only appears in the New Testament. He isn't defined and it's clearly Essene and Zoroastrian in origin. That name just means Advisary and is used in different contexts each time.
You will recall Nebuchadnezer was the Babylonian king at the time of the captivity. He was defeated by Cyrus the Great (Koresh in the Hebrew)
Cyrus was then proclaimed the Messiah ( the anointed one) by YhWH himself. I think he's the first Messiah mentioned in the tome after the fall of the first temple.
“Thus said יהוה to His anointed, to Koresh, whose right hand I have grasped, to subdue nations before him and ungird the loins of sovereigns, to open before him the double doors, so that gates are not shut: (Isaiah 45:1 ISR98)
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 28, 2015 - 10:38pm PT
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Lorenzo,
You are getting hung-up on a name. Lol.
Like G-d who has many names throughout the Good Book, and I mean many! and even a personal name we shouldn't say out of respect, the tetragrammaton, that you typed above in Hebrew, ...
so does the Angel he created that fell, Lucifer: aka Satan, the fallen one, the father of lies, the dragon, the snake, the deceiver, and the list goes on and on and on.
You are getting hung up on a single name. Lol. The Good Book is a lot deeper than that.
To have many names for a person or deity in the Good Book is very Hebrew, very Jewish, very Judaic. Names are very helpful to understand all the characteristics of that deity and/or individual.
What does Yeshua give to The Children of G-d when he returns? A new name that only he and they will know!
G-d is brilliant and amazing.
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Lorenzo
Trad climber
Oregon
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Jan 28, 2015 - 10:41pm PT
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It's not just a name. I challenge you to show any linkage between Lucifer and Satan.
Other than Isaiah is Gloating over the death of a bad king by a good king in his eyes, there just isn't any linkage.
There is no fallen angel there.
Show linkage with bible quotes. You can't just pick random names out of a book and claim linkage.
You are constructing your own personal theology. Some call that blasphemy. It got that guy in the New Testament in trouble.
And I didn't type anything I cut and pasted. The Hebrew proscription is against SAYING the name, not seeing it written. It's in the Torah.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 28, 2015 - 10:56pm PT
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And I didn't type anything I cut and pasted. The Hebrew proscription is against SAYING the name, not seeing it written. It's in the Torah.
True but even in Judaism they build an additional fence around the Torah so they don't get near to saying his personal name by accident, that is why the tetragrammaton is replaced often in the original Torah written in Hebrew (except for scribed parchment rolled scrolls used in synagogue for Sabbath services) with ...
HaShem, "The Name"
Adonai, "Lord"
Elohim, G-d's plurality nature, the triune nature of G-d, The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit
They do so out of respect. But everyone knows that it is a substitute for his personal name. It is a safe Jewish Rabbinic tradition.
The rest we are gonna have to agree to disagree.
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Lorenzo
Trad climber
Oregon
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Jan 28, 2015 - 11:02pm PT
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Haha, at this point I'm not sure anybody knows how to say the name. Hebrew is different than two millennia ago.
And I'm pretty sure you'll get some flack over the triune God with Jews. Heck, you might with Arian Christians.
Still waiting for where in the bible you get this idea of Fallen Angels and Lucifer.....
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dirtbag
climber
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Jan 28, 2015 - 11:19pm PT
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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Jan 28, 2015 - 11:26pm PT
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Still waiting for where in the bible you get this idea of Fallen Angels and Lucifer.....
belay-on
Isaiah 14:12,
How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
that was an easy one
nice talk!
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 28, 2015 - 11:31pm PT
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Haha, at this point I'm not sure anybody knows how to say the name. Hebrew is different than two millennia ago.
You are correct. From the time of the destruction of the Temple 70 AD/CE the way to properly pronounce G-d's personal name has been lost in Judaism. The vowel points in Hebrew came later after the destruction so we wouldn't forget how to properly pronounce Hebrew.
It was only really the High Priests who would say his personal name in ritual after a lot of priestly preparation, and never in vain, so you can see that the ordinary folks wouldn't say his name. They knew better than to. So you can see how they would forget since the priests don't have a temple and they aren't doing animal sacrifices as a result at this time. Use it or lose it as they say. And then only the priests would use his personal name ...
But even the forgetting how to properly pronounce the personal name of G-d is eluted to in prophecy. Read the Book of Revelation, when Yeshua comes back he comes back with a secret name written on his crown on his head that no man knew ... perhaps we forgot how to pronounce it?
Revelation 19:10-16 (KJV)
[10] And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.
[11] And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
[12] His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
[13] And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
[14] And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
[15] And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
[16] And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
By the way, count how many different names Yeshua has in the above quoted scripture. Names are descriptions of characteristics, and G-d has many. And so does satan, lucifer, the father of lies, etc. etc. etc.
Different names of Yeshua in the above scripture:
*Jesus
*G-d
*Faithful and True
*"on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself"
*and his name is called "The Word of God"
*Almighty God
*KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS
I count 7. I rest my case.
(For the moment.)
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Lorenzo
Trad climber
Oregon
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Jan 28, 2015 - 11:49pm PT
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Keep resting. You'll need your strength to find either Lucifer or fallen angels there.
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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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Jan 29, 2015 - 06:28am PT
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Cults - too much work. You could be reading some Raymond Carver or finishing those macrame spider fern holders but noooooo... you're dissecting The Greatest Boring Ever Told like it was a vacuum tube stereo schematic with the winning Lotto number kneaded somewhere deep inside.
That its 2015 and folks are still dry humping the Bible is flummoxing, but at least their kids are wise enough to give their limited supply if fks to more honest and relevant pursuits than trying to find the part where God hates fags for a rapt innernut fan base.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 29, 2015 - 11:57am PT
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Wow, it is so amazing ... never fails.
Talk about G-d and the bitter hateful attacks and vulgar words just spew forth. Why is it when someone talks about G-d this always happens?
Rabbi Yeshua had a great deal to say about this type of behavior and the propensity of certain people to do this. Cause meet effect ...
John 8:44 (KJV)
"Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it."
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Lorenzo
Trad climber
Oregon
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Jan 29, 2015 - 12:04pm PT
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Micah 4:3-4
"And He shall judge among many peoples, and reprove strong nations afar off. They shall beat their swords into ploughshares, and their spears into pruning hooks – nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither teach battle any more. But each one shall sit under his vine and under his fig tree, with no one to make them afraid, for the mouth of יהוה of hosts has spoken. For all the peoples walk, each one in the name of his mighty one, but we walk in the Name of יהוה our Elohim forever and ever. (Micah 4:3-5 ISR98)
Micah is telling you that peace will come when each person can walk in the name of his own god.
You do believe in the bible, right?
Any word on the Nephilim and Lucifer being fallen angels ?
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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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Jan 29, 2015 - 12:17pm PT
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Bitter? Hardly. Hateful? Say what?
Bemused? Absolutely.
A stranger's crazy isn't my problem, but I do feel grateful to be who I am instead of the alternative.
It would be quite strange to look in the mirror every day and say to myself "I believe in spaceships on the moon piloted by hybrid demons", but then, I don't experience such delusions as 'real'. Perhaps I'm in the Matrix, and the joke's on me.
I work with guys diagnosed with schizophrenia and other psychological issues at the local shelter once a month, and this kind of stuff is their bread and butter. Some can quote scripture better than any preacher. Religion is like a salt lick for crazy, but that's fine. It provides an outlet, a focus, and an explanation for what occasionally rages inside them. Mainly, we just schlep the food and converse with them enough so they don't scare away the public housing officials during the application process.
This thread seems to be a public appeal for status and worth. "I know more about the Bible than you do plus I've got the inside info on that spaceship wake up sheeple blah blah blah." Then, once inevitably publicly humiliated, the poster becomes the heroic Defender of the Faith.
This behavior has become so cliche on forums like this that it begs for its own verb.
Salt licking?
Dunk tanking?
Hell, I don't know.
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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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Jan 29, 2015 - 01:08pm PT
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Impossible. James Cameron would have been space-touristed that action already. It would explain the B17, though.
As is the Ark. Where's the History Channel documentary?
I rest my case.
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chill
climber
between the flat part and the blue wobbly thing
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Jan 29, 2015 - 01:34pm PT
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Why we are facing an influx of Aliens globally, who they are, and what's their purpose in these end of age times. It isn't an end of time or an end of Earth, it is an end of an age of man's rule. Why we are in the last days now and it couldn't have ever been before our present time. Prophecy has to be fulfilled. Key prophetic events have to be fulfilled before the last age of mankind's rule on Earth comes to an end
Credulity of this magnitude just blows me away.
With so much real beauty and mystery in the universe, why would someone waste their time with this?
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Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
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Jan 29, 2015 - 01:52pm PT
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For your safety though, seriously watch out for moon Nazis.
There's a Netflix movie about those, really. Not hilarious enough for me to get past the first 20 minutes, though. Instead watched Ascension, where Cylon 6 finally comes back.
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