Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
Transmission
climber
Dallas, TX
|
|
|
Oct 12, 2011 - 04:58pm PT
|
Uh, Transmission bro, why did you edit that quote to cut out the part that don't jive with your viewpoint?
Let's give the rest of it for context, eh budday?
Actually, budday, it jives just fine and thank you for playing the pawn and pointing that out -- what you fail to realize is that that just makes it that much worse -- it's a "MORE NATURAL LINE" but the guy had to use freakin' bolt ladders to get up it.
So I ask again in as sarcastic a tone as I can: where is the outrage? Where are SG and Mimi condemning this blow-hard? I thought we were going for a standard of ethics here? YOU CAN"T HAVE A STANDARD IF THE TARGET KEEPS CHANGING! That is the opposite of what a standard actually is.
Some cummon, SG and Mimi, where is the sh!tstorm over this? == pun intended.
Hypocrites.
|
|
deuce4
climber
Hobart, Australia
|
|
|
Oct 12, 2011 - 06:07pm PT
|
a good point, if essessively expressed.
i would argue that the amount of "unnatural" placements ( bolts, rivets, chisselled heads, bathooks, enhanced hooks, etc.) determines the "naturalness" of the line.
In this sense, both lines are similar.
|
|
Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
|
|
|
Oct 12, 2011 - 06:17pm PT
|
some people might possibly argue that linking natural features still makes for a potential "natural line", and that the absence of said features was why nobody had ascended the slab before, since it would be just linking of drilled placements.
again, hard to have a discussion in 2011 in the context of what was valid in 1982, since tube socks and ball hugger dolphin running shorts were then popular.
another often repeated metric (as related to "outrage") is the honest reporting of tactics and whatnot, so what did kohl report originally? harding after all did famously drill his way up off the nose through the middle of the night, and nobody can say that's an unnatural line.
|
|
Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Joshua Tree
|
|
|
Oct 12, 2011 - 06:22pm PT
|
What I think is missing from your (Deuce and Powerglide 300) "natural line" analysis is "Intent".
When you start a line that you can actually see (the layman's defition of a "natural line"), the presumption and intent is that you will be able to get up it with minimal drilling, etc.
When you start a line that is clearly blank of features and does not constitute what a layman would call a natural line, the presumption/intent is that you will certainly be drilling and know that before you ever embark on your little adventure.
The end result may be similar, but if end result was all that mattered we wouldn't have 1st degree murder, 2nd degree, manslaughter, involuntary manslaughter, etc. Intent matters.
|
|
deuce4
climber
Hobart, Australia
|
|
|
Oct 12, 2011 - 06:44pm PT
|
Not sure if intent can be differentiated. Consider each team's "bag of tools" (drills, bolts, rivets, chisels, etc) upon leaving the ground.
The point of the two eras is significant though. Standards aren't static.
With the notable exception of Gerberding's routes, the standard of "naturalness" of new El Cap routes in the 90's was often on the low-end.
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
|
Oct 12, 2011 - 06:51pm PT
|
Wings of steel is a forced line.
Too many holes and smashed heads in only what is it about 9 pitches.
Totally stupid.
Look at the Nose, Salathe, NA, west face etc.
That's why they're classics.
After that comes debauchery.
Yer all goin to hell for this debauchery .....
Oh wait a minute, .....
You're all already there in hell ....
|
|
donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
|
|
|
Oct 12, 2011 - 07:08pm PT
|
Right on Werner!
|
|
deuce4
climber
Hobart, Australia
|
|
|
Oct 12, 2011 - 07:52pm PT
|
|
|
icaro
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
|
|
|
Oct 12, 2011 - 08:22pm PT
|
"if its a choice between eternal hell and good tunes.. or eternal heaven and New Kids on The Fu#king block... Im gonna be surfing on the lake of fire rocking out, high-fiving satan evertime i pass him on the fu#king shore." - Bill Hicks
|
|
Da_Dweeb
climber
|
|
|
Oct 14, 2011 - 10:02am PT
|
Mighty Hiker - It's Khan, the villain from Star Trek II engaged in a rousing game of Where's Waldo.
An appropriate metaphor. Nice find, Yo.
|
|
kunlun_shan
Mountain climber
SF, CA
|
|
|
Oct 17, 2011 - 11:22pm PT
|
R&I finally arrived in my mailbox this evening and I just finished reading the WOS story. Very well written article, Ammon!! Am glad someone finally managed to get up the whole route and check things out. It only took 30 years, (and with modern gear) - says something about Mark, Richard, Ammon and Kait :)
|
|
Mike Bolte
Trad climber
Planet Earth
|
|
|
Oct 17, 2011 - 11:39pm PT
|
Kait: Here are some photos of our second ascent of WOS. Thought it would compliment the article to put these out for everyone to view. Cheers!
I can't believe that Mighty Hiker of all people wrote that second sentence.
I was a well written article. Nice job by the pirate. WB is right that the line was forced, but the difficulty of the line is pretty hard to deny now.
EDIT: ah
|
|
Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
|
|
|
Oct 18, 2011 - 12:13am PT
|
Umm, I didn't write it - Kait did. I was merely cross-posting.
|
|
bergbryce
Mountain climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
|
|
|
Oct 18, 2011 - 01:07am PT
|
I searched like hell to find a copy of R&I. Enjoyed the article up the end... Ammon seemed to be giving some minor props throughout, saying the natural features were used well, the hooking was mentally challenging, etc. The last Bridwell quote being applied to the route however, killed my enthusiasm a bit.
Bridwell said and Ammon applied it to Wings of Steel... "I wouldn't recommend it to my worst enemy".
So basically it was a pile?
I thought the article was well written and am stoked another party finally got up the route. As others have mentioned, there are still unanswered questions.
Isn't A3+ similar to 5.9+ from a certain era? You don't know what exactly it's going to be like, but you're pretty sure it's going to be difficult?
|
|
Transmission
climber
Dallas, TX
|
|
|
Oct 18, 2011 - 01:35am PT
|
Any line you can't or don't free-solo is "forced".
|
|
Da_Dweeb
climber
|
|
|
Oct 18, 2011 - 01:58am PT
|
Bridwell said and Ammon applied it to Wings of Steel... "I wouldn't recommend it to my worst enemy".
So basically it was a pile?
Greetings, Bergbryce!
That quote initially threw me for a loop, too. I wondered if that was what he was saying at first glance, but it seemed incongruent with the nods he gives the route. When I considered it in the context of the rest of the article, I came to interpret it as a reference made to the psychological trauma inherent in the ascent of the route. From my reading, Ammon seemed to be up front about the fact that the route was something of a psychological crucible. Plugging this into the Bridwell quote, I believe he was referring to the fact that he would not wish that kind of psychological strain on his worst enemy, as opposed to calling the route a pile.
(Ammon, Kait, please correct me if I'm wrong on any of that.)
|
|
bergbryce
Mountain climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
|
|
|
Oct 18, 2011 - 02:12am PT
|
Plugging this into the Bridwell quote, I believe he was referring to the fact that he would not wish that kind of psychological strain on his worst enemy, as opposed to calling the route a pile.
I can see that perspective too and would be interested in knowing which it is.
|
|
deuce4
climber
Hobart, Australia
|
|
|
Oct 18, 2011 - 02:37am PT
|
I always perceived that quote of Bridwell's as a warning that it's hard and gnarly but not necessarily aesthetic.
Big walls in general are the kind of deferred fun that Csikszentmihalyi discusses in his flow theory.
http://www.deuce4.net/web/climberMotivation.pdf
|
|
Da_Dweeb
climber
|
|
|
Oct 18, 2011 - 04:57pm PT
|
Damn, Deuce. Thanks for posting this study.
I’ve only had the chance to look into it for about an hour, but it’s already apparent that Csikzentmihalyi’s the fecking master bard of leisure research. The way he describes Flow not only immediately calls the concept to mind, but actually puts me in that state for as long as I reflect on it.
... in the flow state, action follows upon action according to an internal logic that seems to need no conscious intention by the actor. He experiences it as a unified flowing from one moment to the next, in which he is in control of his actions, and in which there is little distinction between past, present and future. (Csikszentmihalyi: 1975,
p 36)
I’m also seeing what you mean regarding the Bridwell quote and Flow Theory, and it also provides a theoretical explanation for why the route hasn’t seen much repeat.
...both the experienced climber and the novice will become anxious, as predicted by the Flow Theory, when the task exceeds the skill level available. The more experienced the climber the more
probable it is that s/he will avoid such a situation.
Main focus seems to be the nature of shifting motivations for rock climbers over 40 freaking years as both the climber and their enjoyment of the sport mature and shift over time. Largely from extrinsic factors - such as gaining the approval and acceptance of other climbers – to the intrinsic – such as self-satisfaction and personal fulfillment.
This progression is gradual and is an internal process of the individuals themselves. It is not an externally driven mechanism controlled by social forces but rather an internal mechanism powered by the individual’s experiences and observations. Those individuals who do not internalise the enjoyment and rewards of rockclimbing soon cease the activity.
It’s interesting also how the authors mention that as this maturation shift occurs there’s generally an increase in the range of aspects and types of climbs a climber enjoys.
The longer an individual participates in an activity the more enjoyment develops from participation. This "learning" process assists in developing the internalisation of rewards from extrinsic to intrinsic, permitting rockclimbing to be enjoyed for all of its aspects: the exciting and adventurous; the difficult and challenging; the calm and relaxing.
I’ll have to go back and delve deeper into the article after class, and maybe have a look at Csikszentmihalyi’s prior study about the tie-in between rock-climbing and the pursuit of self-actualization, and how rock climbing can be a means through which to pursue it.
|
|
jfailing
Trad climber
Lone Pine
|
|
|
Oct 18, 2011 - 05:02pm PT
|
When Bridwell first said that, wasn't about that route Bushido on HD?
I saw a feature on it in one of the mags (maybe Alpinist?), that had a brief story of the route, written by Bard. They suffered somewhat, the route was hard, the route was dangerous, but the line didn't seem nearly as forced as WoS.
Don't know necessarily how to interpret Ammon's using of the line... Then again, don't know exactly how to interpret Bridwell's using either...
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!