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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Chop the Compressor Route.
Wait on death sentencing this route until further first hand assessments are available.
Something tells me this thread will go over 400.
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ec
climber
ca
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TIG, You got that exactly right!
Our opinions don't really matter...What's done is done.
 ec
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Domingo
Trad climber
El Portal, CA
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Last time I checked, someone was very near to chopping the compressor route before people made a HUGE deal about that possibility.
I'm not necessarily pro or con chopping "Growing Up", but since we're gambling a lot already:
If no one chops this route before it sees twelve ascents, I bet 50 postcards it won't get chopped at all, a la popularity. People will flip over a chop.
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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"When you do an FA of your own rap bolted route, it's like doing someone else's route."
I always held that if you rap-bolted a line, you could not be on the FA team.
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ec
climber
ca
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"I always held that if you rap-bolted a line, you could not be on the FA team. - k-man
I guess in the guidebook there will have to be a list of 'contributing manufacturers.'
ec
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nature
climber
Santa Fe, NM
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'contributing manufacturers.'
naw.... I think the correct terminology would be "route equipped by:"
Which is the terminology I/we use when establishing new sport lines in various places. Said sport lines are rapped in and IMHO is the only sane way of equipping the routes. Chossy sandstone that cleans up nicely (once the effort is put in) isn't waiting for someone bold enough to do it ground up. To do it ground up would simply be a rather silly idea.
300th?!?!
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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Heck with all this ancient ground up stuff. Talk about thinking outside the box, I'm going up there to rap down and just put up a few pitches near the top. You know, well scoped, not too hard or scarey, well protected routes that are within range of a lot of folks. Kind of a community service you might say....
Rap bolting is cool, who says they have to start at the bottom? I'm the FA guy, I get to be the judge.
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adventurewagen
Trad climber
Seattle
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After reading the entire thread I'll keep it simple.
I'd love to get on the route, at least the first half but seeing as there was never and will never be an FA for the second half it looses alot of it's appeal for me. To say that I climbed Karma, Autobahn, Southern Belle, etc would have true meaning since I'd be repeating an amazing feat first and more impressively done by the FA. Climbing "Growing Up" is just a tick. No style points, no amazing feat, just training and cranking through the manufactured pre-protected route.
Not to say the route won't get done but it is nothing more than a "tick" at this point for anyone. It will never be an "ascent" for me or anyone that climbs it. Maybe the first half but never the second. The only interest it holds would be in those first 10 pitches at which point I think I'd rap because repeating the second half just holds no interest and would practically dirty the clean send you could go for on the true part of the climb.
On another note I consider myself to live in a world already "climbed out". Most every beautiful line within my ability has already been climbed so I'm one of he many climbers (a whole generation and future generations) left to sloppy seconds and for me the FA team plays a big part in the route, especially for places like the valley. If people take the true gems and rap bolt them for us then we lose yet another route that could have had more character than your average crag climb.
I dream of climbing Southern Belle though I never will, but I just can't see wasting my time on "Growing Up". I could see getting on the route and plugging it up to where the crack dies but there isn't anything pushing me to the top other than getting that "tick". So for me this whole debacle boils down to whether it's another tick for my list or an actual ascent for my personal history books.
Since I can't get the FA on the climb the best I can do is repeat the route the same way the FA party did it and then oooh and aaah over their marvelous route. Making it through run outs or over odd terrain are part of the game. I guess it's time to go rap in and check the route out. Then climb it or whatever...
Rap bolting in my mind should be left to all the crap rock you find at your local crag, which is merely training grounds for where the real stuff happens.
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Cracko
Trad climber
Quartz Hill, California
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Tradisgood,
My vote is for the quality of the person. However, the quality of one's route can make a strong statement about the quality of the person as this thread clearly demonstrates. Carry on !!
Cracko
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lost.hairrow
Social climber
Ojai,CA
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Question: Is it OK to rap down a blank face and using a saw manufacture a hand crack if you then lead it clean/ground up?
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stevep
Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
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Good points TIG. I'm not sure that the style of the FA should somehow make all other ascents invalid. There are certainly climbs put up in the 60's that I could do in better style, without damaging the rock. But that doesn't mean I disrespect those ascents, or that I would enjoy those climbs any less.
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martygarrison
Trad climber
Modesto
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For me this thread is getting tired. I think folks have stated and restated their position. I for one am on the side of rap bolting half dome is not high on my integrity list, however I also understand it is just a sport, we all do it for fun and life certainly has other curves balls that will be far more important than this issue.
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Ihateplastic
Trad climber
Lake Oswego, Oregon
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"... I bet 50 postcards...
Cool! I started a new form of currency!
S.C.R.E.E.E.C.H.I.NG. halt!!!!!!!!!.. Adventurewagen considers himself living ,"... in a world already "climbed out". " Holy Sh't! Not even close! The approaches may be longer but the number of cracks, slabs, ridges, etc. left in the Sierra, Baffin, Norway, Patagonia, northern Africa. etc. will keep the next ten generations of climbers posting up new trip reports.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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"On another note I consider myself to live in a world already "climbed out". Most every beautiful line within my ability has already been climbed so I'm one of he many climbers (a whole generation and future generations) left to sloppy seconds and for me the FA team plays a big part in the route, especially for places like the valley. If people take the true gems and rap bolt them for us then we lose yet another route that could have had more character than your average crag climb. "
You're in luck because the vast majority of Long Yosemite face routes were put in the traditional way.
And you're also in luck because it's very rare for any of them to get climbed. No line for you.
So it shouldn't be a problem to give this climb a miss. In fact, you should make a moral point of it.
After all, If lesser climbers are denied, by lack of boldness, all the R and X rated lines put up by the hardmen of the past., then:
Those who disapprove of rap-bolted, pre-inspected, or sieged lines should stay off them-to do otherwise is like being one of those politicians that legislates against prostitution in the daytime and bangs whores at night.
Avoid Snake Dike to begin with. It was retrobolted.
If you think "OK, I just won't clip the retro-bolts on Snake Dike, then the same option is there for you on "Growing Up"
Or just climb to the top of the Arch, A0 the bolt ladder, and free solo to the top by your own route, cause that's basically the alternative if you can't stance drill nor hook drill.
Did Doug and Shawn get less adventure because they rap bolted? Yeah! Why did they do so? Two possibilities..
1. To selfishly establish their creds with a route to the top of Half Dome.
or
2. To create a route that future climbers of that grade could enjoy.,
Since I'm mostly a route-repeating kind of guy. I appreciate #2 and think there's a place for it.
Cause after all. The guys who put up the Death Routes on Half Dome...Why did they do so? Two possibilities..
1. To have an awesome adventure with or without regard to those who follow.
2. To make a name for themselves and get respect and honor.
Is it so different?
I remember when Crest Jewel went up. (in good style I think) It was still criticized for having too many bolts. Such a fine route and one of the few faces still climbed in Yosemite of that length.
Times and opinions change. If you're one of those who used to condemn hang-dogging and now you do it all the time, maybe it's time to be quiet about your next moral judgement about others.
The second half of "Growning Up" exists in only two forms. As a death route, as a rap bolted route, or not at all. For those who lionize putting it up as a death route by somebody capable of running it out from stance to stance, I ask one question:
If I go to the Elementary School and kick the ass of all the toughest 6th graders, does that make me a brave hero?
I think there's something to be said for public service on public lands that future generations can enjoy.
Peace
Karl
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mojede
Trad climber
Butte, America
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Cracko, think about this highly contrived scenario:
Reinhold Messner decides to rap bolt a route on SFHD--having never placed a bolt before, the outcome is a disaster.
Mojede decides to rap bolt a route on SFHD--having placed many bolts this way before, the outcome is a success.
Just saying that there is a fine line between the route and the climber, that's all.
edit: on the topic of quality herein.
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Owlman
Social climber
Montucky
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Choppy chop chop.
Or change the name to,
"Growing Down".
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Eddie
Trad climber
San Francisco
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Perhaps we could put a sign at the base of the route that says "Beware: Upper sections were Rap Bolted...Climb at Your Own Risk"
Then, we'll employ a NPS ranger to stand at the top, and make sure to point out to the tourists that the climbers topping out aren't REALLY hardcore, because the route they climbed was put up in 'bad' style.
Lastly, we'll make sure the guidebooks point it out as well, right next to the 5 Stars...
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paganmonkeyboy
climber
mars...it's near nevada...
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"Reinhold Messner decides to rap bolt a route on SFHD"
ok - that made me laugh ;-) i'm picturing him swearing profusely in german while hand drilling...
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Doug Robinson
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
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There is no movie. In fact, the movie was dead in the water long before the decision to carry fixed ropes up the cables. Too bad, because part of my dream was to film some of the decision-making that goes into a FA. That could have become interesting indeed. Might have even given us something a little more real to watch than the all-too-common sort of "sport filming" of ruthlessly wired moves set to a heavy metal soundtrack.
But even as the climbing got started back in March '07 my partner in the filming company was spinning off into his own personal purgatory. For me that became a huge distraction. "...wandering around down on the coast looking for a partner" is the way I put it in the article. It dragged my attention away from HD. End result of that fracas: not one second of useful footage was shot on the face. Too bad; but on the bright side I suppose I saved some of you from the moral dilemma of whether to watch such a tainted production.
BTW we did have a film permit, after posting the required million dollar insurance policy. Another expense gone to waste.
I did keep supporting the climbing with logistics, because I was excited about the climb and respected how Sean was doing it and because I had promised to. And I went deeper into debt. Where I still am. Financially it was a black hole and with tendonitis I couldn't even climb, but I carried up food and rope and some of the beer that we drank while hashing out how to proceed.
Lines were fixed for filming that never got used. All the way up the arch they were put up after the climb was led trad, ground up. Shawn Reeder, whose still photos I like, used them to shoot those modern angles above, to the side, and over the shoulder. For awhile 97 of them were on his blog, maybe still are. The only bolts on the whole arch section are the belay anchors. Because the arch leans left, fixed lines from a higher anchor hung out to the side and Shawn was able to shoot stills from them.
The arch turns into a roof going way left at its top, and coming back down along the route from there was not possible, so we fixed a rap route straight down. Like the bottom of the rap route off the Nose, it crosses some pretty blank rock, but you can get to the ground with two 160 foot ropes. And it connects with the line on the upper wall, so it's possible to retreat from up there in bad weather, which will avoid some of the epic close calls like Harding and Rowell and Middendorf had.
So our hard decision at the top of the arch to switch from trad to dropping a line from the top had nothing to do with film or with making money. Reeder sold a few shots from up there (and those give you a glimpse of the terrain and the texture) and I got less than minimum wage for writing about it. Sean's sponsors got some publicity, and his take didn't prevent him from -- right now -- working construction to feed his kids. No slide show, no groupies.
Now this next part is starting to feel ironic in light of the crap some of you want to dump on us: we did it for you. We did it for the future. We did it as an alternative to the death-route spiral the South Face had been in. We did it for choice. You can still choose Southern Belle, sack up and face the consequences. My big respect goes to you if you make that choice, as it goes to Coz and Schultz for putting it up. But now there's another possible choice. And this choice will likely get climbed more. I hope its a lot. That stellar terrain deserves to be felt.
Oddly, that leads to politics. See, I think more climbers on the South Face is a good a thing, just like more hikers on the cables is good. (Besides keeping Werner in work, I mean, since 25% of all the rescues in the park are on the Half Dome Trail.) All those people getting out there and breathing mountain air and getting the "glad tidings" as John Muir would say, they all add to the political constituency of wilderness. And wilderness needs all the help it can get.
Climbing can use a bit more political voice too. And I think that more climbers having more fun in the mountains is a good start. Somebody cratering off of Karma won't help our political stand as much as a thousand climbers Growing Up. This route will never do as much as the Snake Dike, but it's going to give more people a breathtaking experience in the mountains than Southern Belle ever will.
Enough. I hate it when anyone starts to sound preachy, expecially me.
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