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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago
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jstan!
Every Christian I know considers the Jesus of the Gospels as offering to have a personal relationship with Him. The Bible is as Christ clearly claims the Word of God. Up thread I quoted John 1:1-3,14 Jesus clearly stated(as documented by the apostle John that "In the beginning was the Word.....And the word became flesh and dwelt among us" Jesus is the Word. And the Bible is Gods love letter to mankind. Jesus is the gift "God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son that whomever believes in Him shall not perish, but will have eternal life" John 3:16.
Every church I have attended(because He does ask us to fellowship and worship with other believers have never asked me or anyone to join a religion. Such as Catholic, Jehovah W, etc. They did hope you would eventually come to the knowledge of the need to except Christ. And all pastors n new there would always be people in the church that were not saved and stated such regularly. It can not be forced on any one.
When I came to know Him I also came to know (over time, because I was initially young and had only the Catholic church and their disbelief's) that the Bible is the Word of God.
Some churches ask you to join there specific assembly(for fellow support and commitment etc.)Your joining together to support in ways such as helping with the elderly, parking, seating, the sick, feeding the homeless, visiting widows and orhans etc. They simply get your phone number and address and hope you will pitch in when needed. I never have(I have helped here and there). One reason being that I have moved around allot.
Christianity is about a relationship. You have to seek that personal relationship individually. You can not simply join a "religion" and do some required things such as get baptised by a priest or anyone else etc and call yourself a Christian.
I have gone over this many times, the Jesus I know states in the gospels that He personally made sure that He would reveal Himself to mankind through the Bible. Surely you can understand if He truly is God that He can insure the deliverance of that letter to mankind unadulterated, in total to this very day. "My word will not slip away..."
John, I can understand your doubts in regards to man, but we are talking about an omnipresent, omnipotent, omniscient God, "everything is possible"(nothing is impossible with God). He can and did use fallible man to pen the infallible Word of God.
I have had epiphany's(so have others)I have had visions 5-6(so have others)etc. etc. over the last 50 yrs.And I had a somewhat unique introduction to the person of Christ. But I am no different than Jobee or Skipt or Cragman or Tobias or bluering or Klimmer or others I can't think of right now, or Billy Graham for that matter....there may be a few minor disagreements here and there. But we have all at one time or another came to the acknowledgement of our need for forgiveness and a Savior, and asked Christ into our hearts.
He revealed Himself to us after that initial act of faith(as much through His word as with supernatural events). It is through His Grace that this occurs. If you call that(Jesus) a religion, than what can I say.
I personally think politics and calling one sin worse than another so to speak and other things under the banner of Chritianity, has done allot of damage to the body of Christ. But it is just one of the signs of the times.
Hope this helps some. I am kind of rambling at this point and forget the specific question. Oh well, ask again if this didn't do it.
The Jesus I know is the Jesus of the Bible.
Piece, Trip~
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 4, 2009 - 04:32pm PT
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so, at exactly what moment in human physical evolution did god reach down
and insert a "soul" in to the lucky homo sapiens alive at that time?
Was it about 2000 or so years ago when Adam and Eve were in the Garden?
It is just "too bad" for any humans who lived immediately before the
instant the soul was created in humans?
THEY were doomed to no "life after death" because they had no soul?
We KNOW modern humans were around prior to Adam and Eve, so WHAT DOES
happen to them, they just die and return to dust with no soul and
chance of a shot at heaven? Like a "blind Salamander"?
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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The Final Judgment
Matthew 25:31-46, “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left. Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.’ Then the righteous will answer him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? And when did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? And when did we see you sick or in prison and visit you?’ And the King will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.’ “Then he will say to those on his left, *‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.* For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’ Then they also will answer, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to you?’ Then he will answer them, saying, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ * And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”*
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 4, 2009 - 05:11pm PT
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Not only "people" will burn in eternal hell, but also every non Catholic
CHILD who was not baptized prior to 1962 is and will burn in hell.
So said the Catholic Church.
WHEN did the guy in the sky reach down and inject a "soul" in to modern humans?
Since Adam and Eve were the first humans "created" a couple thousand years
ago, does every modern human for 198,000 years prior to that simply
turn to dust with no chance at heaven?
What does Christianity say about those humans unlucky enough to be born
prior to Adam and Eve?
Tripp, Gobee ?
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rectorsquid
climber
Lake Tahoe
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Here is how I interpret the Christian God:
* You must believe to go to heaven.
* If you are born with a birth defect that makes it impossible for you to comprehend any religious teachings then you are obviously treated differently than the "smart" people who can understand the teachings. You therefore still go to heaven. After all, you are not capable of the same relationship with God as the "smart" people are.
* If you are born with an analytical mind and are prone to thoughts of science and atheism, you are not treated differently and go to hell. Bummer for you.
Therefore, it appears that God would throw a dog out of the window and then punish it because it can't fly. There is no other way to see it. God must have made belief difficult knowing that many people will reject Him but did it anyhow. What kind of childish crap is that? then to make sure that some people are mentally aligned with the God stuff is even worse. it stacks the desk against some of us while favoring those that are prone to accept mythology and fantasy as truth (accepting that it could actually be true in this context).
There's also the issue of talking to some people in their heads, as the voice of Jesus or whatever, and letting them think they are sane while also letting others also hear voices in their heads that tell them to do horrible things because they are simply crazy. There is no way for anyone to know if they are hearing Jesus or just going insane. unless you actually don't believe that insanity exists. Again, it's a bunch of crap or it's a cruel and mean God that makes belief impossible for so many (everyone who is not Christian according to Christians).
At this point in my life, I accept that there is no life after death and that once my brain stops sending signals around, there will be no "me" and no universe as far as I'm concerned. It really makes life easier, not harder. I can be kind for the sake of being kind, not to avoid punishment.
I am the dog. I have been thrown out out of the window of heaven and have not been able to fly because God did not give me wings. I hope I am treated as well as the retarded kids when I am judged.
Dave
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 4, 2009 - 05:29pm PT
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rectorsquid for POTUS!
endorsed by the Norton family
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago
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Base104-"Don't pray in our schools, and I won't pray in your church.
First of all, I am not advocating anything. For one reason, I personally believe nothing is going to turn America back to where it was in the 50's 60's moraly speaking. And if you can't see the moral decline since 1962Drugs and gangs and murder and failing at one war after another, divorce and greed, teen suicide, pornography everywhere etc.(there are problems that no kind of science is going to fix Bro). It's far to gone, and I know many would argue to the contrary, Christian and Atheist.
Maybe I missed something but I(nor any of my siblings) ever saw prayer in school per-say. We were given the option to leave for the last hour of class one day a week to our respective places of worship or stay in classes for secular activities(this was on the East Coast, not in Cali.
I do recall the state of California having a contest titled "What Does Democracy Mean to Me". And God was a big part of my paper along with equality(my forth and sixth grade teachers were black men as were many of my friends, along with Hispanic and Caucasian) and it was the height of the Civil Rights Movement 1961. And according to my teacher and the newspaper I won...for what that is worth. I wouldn't have been able to include God today!! Guess I would have too find someway to include Chrlie Darwin into the scope of things(it is the 200th year of his Thesis).
Don't recall the subject of God being brought up much. I guess it was just the fact that He was not censored and now is that got some peoples goat.
I will say this God says He created the world in six days, (I am sure He could have done it in six seconds)I do believe he was trying to instill in us a day of rest, for the animals that were so integral in work for so long, as much as for us.
He also states that time as we know it was created with man, everything started to decay at that time. He also said that a day to Him is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like a day. It is hard for us to grasp, but in eternity there will only be the eternal present.
Obviously He could of created stars with their light already reaching earth.
I have a question for you Base104. How did matter evolve from nothing? If there wasn't anything to begin with. I suppose that is similar to the question that my father use to ask me..."Who made God"? God claims He has always been, according to Genesis and John 1.
What about matter, what does "science" say about it, where did it come from.
"For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made even His eternal power and the Godhead, so they are without excuse..." Romans 1:20. That is what I have seen, since the days of my first biology classes,peering through a microscope, and astronomy classes, peering through a telescope. I felt no need then or now to tell anyone, like He says, it is clearly seen, evident.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Forget it Base, All posts over two paragraphs are not read. Waste time on Supertopo at your own risk... ;-) ......... ;-(
777 wrote
"Skipt!
Yes, the apostle John wrote the Gospel of John and The Revelation of Jesus Christ(Revelations)"
No scholar of the bible who uses rules of scholarship believes the apostle John wrote revelations. It is universally believed to be written in AD90 on a greek Island.
Peace
Karl
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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fascinating bio details, trip, thanks -not being ironic.
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Bronwyn
Trad climber
Not of This World
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Norton, the Bible does not say anything about anyone prior to Adam and Eve, although it does address humans who have never heard the words of Jesus. So theroretically, anyone prior to what you term "the insertion of the human soul" would, I think be handled the same way.
The Bible says that anyone who has not heard the word of Christ (this would include, of course, those born in remote parts of the world), they shall be viewed by God in accordance with what knowledge was available to them at the time. He looks at the heart, not at the "religion." Jesus said there would be MANY who will stand before Him and protest that they had been "Christians." He said that His response will be, "Depart from me, you evildoers, for I never knew you."
God is merciful and just. For any that were not able by circumstances to know directly of Him, He will be just.
As an aside, and similar to Tripp's story, I know of someone who was raised by atheists. His parents did not hate the church, just never talked about it and it was a non-issue and non-subject in the home. Around the age of 8 or so, my friend overheard a conversation about Jesus, and he said he just knew in his heart that it was true. He said he prayed to receive Jesus into his life, and even though he had never heard of God, and had no Bible, he prayed and felt God's presence every day. It wasn't until he was a teenager that he got a Bible and recognized that this was the God he had come to know and love through his daily experiences.
God knows who has Him in their heart and who is just going through the motions.
I don't know if this really answered your question.
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Jennie
Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
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I don't believe the pivotal issue(s) are Darwin vs. biblical literalism, Adam and Eve in Eden vs. cave dwellers, evolution vs. immaculate quickening....... or science vs religion.
Religion and science are different approaches to truth. It's human misapprehension to perceive the two as contending entities.
The critical question about creation is whether its essence is founded in purpose and design or........... random accident.
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Bronwyn
Trad climber
Not of This World
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Hi Karl,
We do know that the Apostle John died on the Greek Island of Patmos where he had been exiled, as at the time, being a follower of Jesus was a crime.
The crucifixion happened in AD33. So even if John had been 25 or so when Jesus died (I have no idea how old he was, I am throwing that out hypothetically) he would have been 82 in AD90.
So, possible.
Thanks! I really appreciate your posts/thoughts.
Jennie, I think that was an awesome post. I don't think science and faith have to exclude each other. It was always one of my best subjects, all the way through grad school (OK, except maybe chemistry!)
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 4, 2009 - 06:14pm PT
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Bronwyn, good attempt at answering my question!
You did the best you could do.
As I suspected, the HUMANS who wrote the bible had NO conception of
any "earlier" humans like we are talking about, therefore they could
not write anything about them.
At a counterpoint to your little story:
I was born and raised in a devout Catholic family.
By the age of five, I was personally convinced that my parents and the
Catholic school I was attending were flat WRONG, and that the god story
was no different than Santa or the Tooth Fairy stories.
Based upon simple, childlike logic and reason, I knew at that age that
I was an "atheist" for life, although I had never heard of that word./
My Atheism has been "a" major guiding core all of my life since then.
It has brought me much comfort and taught me reason and logic ROCK.
I treasure it as deeply as those who bought the guy in the sky story.
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WBraun
climber
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creation is whether its essence is founded in purpose and design or........... random accident.
It is an absolute fact that creation has purpose and design by intelligence.
Not because some books says so, not because some scientist says so.
Lay all the parts on the table and it takes intelligence to put them together.
A retard and/or idiot can't do it. It doesn't happen by any random accident.
If one "believes" that creation is just random, accident, or no intelligence is none other than a retard, idiot and just plain stupid.
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago
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rectorsquid- "If you are born with an analytical mind...".
Well let's talk about that point for just a second.
In 1983, at San Diego State University, a statistics professor gave us an Analytical Reasoning IQ test one day. There are two standard IQ tests one which most of us are familiar, test our general knowledge of various subjects etc. the second one I was not aware of until that afternoon. It is a multicultural/international invlves the analytical reasoning aspect of our frontal lobes.
As I recall, we were allowed 50-60 min. And it involved somewhere between 55-60 questions, with each question increasing in difficulty. Each of the questions involved four squares with four squares inside of each square=16 squares per question.
Remembering the sequence or perhaps I should say each move from one square to the next was integral to the whole. In other words, each and all the moves had to be remembered when making the final 16th move to solve the puzzle. It required total concentration.
I recall on about the 32 problem, a girl sneezing and it broke my concentration. Although I new were I was at the time of the sneeze, it required 100% concentration to remember the prior moves to do the remaining moves. I said the heck with it and moved on to the 33 puzzle. Well I finished the last one with at least 5 mins left and I new I had gotten all of them right. And it was so much more difficult that I new I could do the 32 one with out much difficulty so I didn't bother(it wasn't graded). I don't think ey were allowed to grade IQ test and she stated that the were confidential etc.
Well at the end of the following class she called me back and told me I had only missed one and that I was in the top 1% in the nation yadayadayada....I always wondered were I would have been categorized if I had went back and done that 32nd problem.
It also frustrated me because it was years before I figured out what I wanted to do with my life. Personally I don't think it is that significant in the grand scheme of things. Though I have always been very analytical.
Trip~
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Bronwyn
Trad climber
Not of This World
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Norton, to be honest, I think the Catholic Church is going to have a LOT to answer for...and not just the obvious trangressions.
I know so many people who were raised Catholic who feel the same way you do. Having been to some Catholic services, I can't say I blame you. All I can say is, God is NOT the Catholic Church!!!
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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The critical question about creation is whether its essence is founded in pupose and design or........... random accident.
There is a third possibility you didn't include, which I think is probably the truth.
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago
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Werner-"It is an absolute fact that creation has purpose and design by intelligence".
Wisely stated WB!
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Bronwyn
Trad climber
Not of This World
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Norton: as PS, there is a rather obscure Biblical reference to a group of people in the Old Testament (somewhere around the reference that most take to mean refers to the dinosaurs)that scholarly debate has raged about for a long time. Of course right now I can't find it!!! It must be somewhere in Genesis, I will have to look for it and get back to you.
Please don't judge the rest of us by your bad experience.
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roadman
climber
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Werner-"It is an absolute fact that creation has purpose and design by intelligence".
Wisely stated WB!
that's the most dipshit thing I've heard all day... but the day is young. So maybe you guys can improve on it!
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