Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
jstan
climber
|
|
|
Jul 12, 2014 - 10:33am PT
|
In these best of times we want only
To rant and then to die.
What's it going to be like in the worst of times?
|
|
Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 12, 2014 - 12:37pm PT
|
Per my Caltech friends - while AI is not my field of study, it it their field of study and the idea that the fundamentals would be lost on them is a bit of a howler. What they are saying, in short (I just talked to one of them) is that most of if not all the stuff written about creating a setient or self-aware are connected or directly associated with the common errors we see presented and defeneded by people on this thread. One is thy myth presented by Healje, a very common one I am told, and that is that sentience is best understood - or perhaps can ONLY be understood in terms of tasking, in terms of DOING something. Not that the poor sap chides anything that does not directly conspire with doing, tasking, and what the computer will do with content. This is the stimulus response model I mentioned earlier and it pays no dividends per providing any kind of starting point for what is required to program self-awareness.
Another totally bogus approach is the rubbish Tvash is claiming per how sentience is "produced," by way of analoguie this and that and so forth. This is the myth of objective functioning, meaning if you only understood how memory and visual recognition and all the other functions work, the sentience would be licked beacause it too is an objective function - though there is a glaring ignorance here between what qualia is and being aware of it. This gets lost in Tvash's sort of knuckleheaded run down which is presented as the most facile truth - but which I am told is not remotely backed up by any actual science. Tvash has simply conflated content/qualia with sentience, not knowing enough about what the latter is to know the difference. Then insisting - also without knowing whatsoever - that anyone NOT believing the objective functioning model is pandering mysteries.
There's been a bit push recently in the literature about moving away from a component POV to wholism, but bits to the whole shooting match, but I'm not seeing those ideas getting any traction here and only hear the same old crapola about people pimping silly mysteries and ignorant distortions of simply terms like no-mind.
JL
|
|
Ward Trotter
Trad climber
|
|
|
Jul 12, 2014 - 01:50pm PT
|
Largo Sack:
Remember when I asked how you might determine that an advanced android encountered casually in the supermarket possessed a subjective life? You answered,correctly, that you would be unable to ascertain whether such a simulated human did indeed experience a genuine inner life.
If you would be unable to determine such a thing ,why would it be such a big deal for your friend , using nothing more than the current state of AI , to come with a workable series of algorithms that could fool you into thinking a well-designed simulacrum contained the rudiments of an inner life?
And what's the big problem with your friend coming up with just a plain old anything ---given he /she is genuinely convinced, or has learned, that a plausible definition or valid determination of a subjective life isn't possible in any case?
Why is it important for AI to simulate human consciousness? Especially those elements that are currently indistinct and arguably adumbrated ?
|
|
jgill
Boulder climber
Colorado
|
|
|
Jul 12, 2014 - 02:39pm PT
|
Why is it important for AI to simulate human consciousness? (WT)
Yes, especially since I cannot prove that you or anyone else has the kind of self-awareness or consciousness I have. All the rest of you might be just high-functioning automata.
Are you?
|
|
Ward Trotter
Trad climber
|
|
|
Jul 12, 2014 - 03:02pm PT
|
Largo, not knowing this was a robot, just the other day tried to "pick her up" in a bar close to the University:
[Click to View YouTube Video]
Its gonna get scary.
One day future generations may look upon this video like we do movies of Model A automobiles.
|
|
MH2
climber
|
|
|
Jul 12, 2014 - 06:34pm PT
|
This is the stimulus response model I mentioned earlier and it pays no dividends per providing any kind of starting point for what is required to program self-awareness. (JL)
Can you define the stimulus response model?
Can your friends?
What is allowed or not allowed as far as programming goes in implementing a stimulus response model?
Are stimulus and response strictly different things?
Can the program use itself as a stimulus?
If the program responds to its own output, is that a kind of self-awareness?
|
|
BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
|
|
|
Jul 12, 2014 - 08:46pm PT
|
Are stimulus and response strictly different things?
Can the program use itself as a stimulus?
If the program responds to its own output, is that a kind of self-awareness?
Can there be a response without any stimuli? And wouldn't a response be different whether or not it had prior experience with said stimuli or not?
A program couldn't use itself as stimulus, unless it was written in it.(or unless it was told to) if it did, it wouldn't be self-aware or free-willing..
And the last one, sounds like a Soap-Opera?
Edit: Not trying to step on Largo's toes by answering.
;.)
|
|
Ricky D
Trad climber
Sierra Westside
|
|
|
Jul 12, 2014 - 08:58pm PT
|
Question...assuming the day arrives where AI is truly achieved and some form of biomechanical machine lives with all of the collective wisdom and functionality of the human mind sans any of the pettiness of human frailty...what do you expect it to do?
Forgive me but I am lost on the potential Return On Investment.
|
|
jgill
Boulder climber
Colorado
|
|
|
Jul 12, 2014 - 09:27pm PT
|
...what do you expect it to do?
Explore outer space?
Run for president.
|
|
Ward Trotter
Trad climber
|
|
|
Jul 12, 2014 - 09:39pm PT
|
what do you expect it to do?
Make a good Tarte Tatin and an excellent log of baked Alaska.
Climb 5.20 ---and look human in the process.
Land a 747 in deep trouble without the interference of human stress and emotion.
Do incredibly complex precision surgery spanning several hours without fatigue or stress.
And... Should I go on?
This is just by the way of highlighting full scale android development, not to mention the incredible health and engineering benefits of nanotechnology .
Personally I'd rather live in the time of Lewis and Clark, but what the hay? I'm not in control here.
|
|
BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
|
|
|
Jul 12, 2014 - 10:00pm PT
|
..what do you expect it to do?
Explore outer space?
Run for president
Explore space? All you need for that is an arm, a leg, and an eye. No sentience required.
And President? i don't think the power hungry Aluminotty would allow that?
What they are geared for is "helping" people.Science has showed that while living alone if the person has a pet(something to talk to that reacts) the patient will live longer. Thus the "medical" companys are pumping money into developing a reactionary robot to help the lonely. And to help other chronic Psych disorders. Then there's the Porn industry with all their Billions. Scientists will take money from anybodys pocket inorder to stay busy.
|
|
MH2
climber
|
|
|
Jul 12, 2014 - 10:06pm PT
|
Question...assuming the day arrives where AI is truly achieved and some form of biomechanical machine lives with all of the collective wisdom and functionality of the human mind sans any of the pettiness of human frailty...what do you expect it to do? (Ricky D)
Build a smarter machine than itself, of course.
|
|
BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
|
|
|
Jul 12, 2014 - 10:31pm PT
|
^^^Would that be by deleting emotions?
|
|
Ward Trotter
Trad climber
|
|
|
Jul 12, 2014 - 10:38pm PT
|
^^^Would that be by deleting emotions?
Perhaps.Maybe you wouldn't want a computer becoming jealous of another and committing a crime of passion.
You certainly wouldn't want an android to commit serial lust killings. Think of the body count under those circumstances.
Here is a good rule of thumb: computers take care of difficult tasks--- like body clean-ups after plane wrecks---and us humans will take care of the horrendously messy emotions that somehow make us feel special anyhow .
|
|
Jim Clipper
climber
from: forests to tree farms
|
|
|
Jul 12, 2014 - 10:49pm PT
|
I wonder if I will live to see the day when computers write law. Possibly, they could structure optimal solutions, ones sure to make everyone equitably upset.
google edit:
ones sure to equitably upset everyone.
|
|
BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
|
|
|
Jul 12, 2014 - 11:21pm PT
|
Here is a good rule of thumb: computers take care of difficult tasks--- like body clean-ups after plane wrecks---and us humans will take care of the horrendously messy emotions that somehow make us feel special anyhow .
Now ur sound'in like God with a bunch of Angels?
|
|
MikeL
Trad climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
|
|
|
Jul 12, 2014 - 11:51pm PT
|
Jgill:
Awaiting our household goods to arrive in Seattle from Santa Clara, Lisa and I visited an origami exhibit at Bellevue Art Museum--and thought of you and your work in visual mathematics (or whatever I should call it). It was difficult to believe that most of the the works were made with single sheets of paper.
|
|
MikeL
Trad climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
|
|
|
Jul 13, 2014 - 12:09am PT
|
"What we are really looking for is a bridge, some way of connecting two separate scientific languages — those of neuroscience and psychology."
(Taken today from "The Trouble With Brain Science," in today's NYTs: http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/12/opinion/the-trouble-with-brain-science.html?);
Here, too, folks conflate the mind and the brain. At that, . . . there appears to be some authorities who argue that there is no good theory of the brain (much less the mind). There is so far to go in this field of study.
"Whose woods these are I think I know.
His house is in the village though;
He will not see me stopping here
To watch his woods fill up with snow."
"My little horse must think it queer
To stop without a farmhouse near
Between the woods and frozen lake
The darkest evening of the year."
"He gives his harness bells a shake
To ask if there is some mistake.
The only other sound’s the sweep
Of easy wind and downy flake."
"The woods are lovely, dark and deep,
But I have promises to keep,
And miles to go before I sleep,
And miles to go before I sleep."
(Stopping by Woods on a Snowy Evening
by ROBERT FROST)
|
|
go-B
climber
Cling to what is good!
|
|
|
Jul 13, 2014 - 07:00am PT
|
...Jesus wept!
|
|
MH2
climber
|
|
|
Jul 13, 2014 - 08:21am PT
|
^^^Would that be by deleting emotions? (BLUEBLOCR)
From being curious. Which can be dangerous from what I'm told.
The science of spontaneity?? Why DO people think science is for everything? However, the author sounded pretty sensible when interviewed by Sheryl MacKay on CBC Radio's North by Northwest this morning.
Trying Not to Try: The Art and Science of Spontaneity
Edward Slingerland
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!