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bookworm
Social climber
Falls Church, VA
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Apr 20, 2009 - 11:01am PT
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yes, let's talk to iran without preconditions...let's take seriously a guy who makes racist remarks at a conference to combat racism:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article6132972.ece
what do think ahmadinejad will give barry when they meet...maybe a book explaining that the holocaust never happened? either way, i'm sure barry will consider it a "nice gesture"
come on, guys, let's compromise...how about just one precondition: iran's "elected" leader must stop calling for the destruction of israel BEFORE we approve their plans for nuclear weapons
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jstan
climber
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Apr 20, 2009 - 11:14am PT
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Worm:
When you suggest "one precondition" you have to have already been down through the scenario's that will follow. What do you propose to do if Iran then gives us the now popular one finger salute? Do you have this answer? Of the seven billion people on earth you will be the first to have this one -provided it is acceptable and leads somewhere we would choose to go.
Simply to say we need to enforce a precondition at a time when our citizens are not joining the military services in large numbers to defeat Iran - is based on absence of logic, unless there is a hidden agenda disposed toward starting another war. In that case I would suggest we need to reinstitute a peacetime draft before we actually start the war. Good to know beforehand if people are going to be willing to go. Otherwise someone is going to appear to be utterly incompetent. We would not want that would we?
Skip:
I'll definitely give it a listen. Thanks.
Sean:
A lot of people contributed more to that campaign than they really could afford. They did it because they felt the alternative would, ultimately, be many times more costly.
It was Obama's ability to come up with new ideas that persuaded me. He started his own fund raising machine which besides answering the old problem of financing campaigns, also answered the question of whether he should be President. If he could not get the needed support, then necessarily, he would not have the support he needed to make decisions. Without the ability to make decisions no one in their right mind would even want to be President.
At this time efforts are being made to strengthen further the base of people who supported his election. That base may be the critical new element permitting us to find a more orderly course.
In the next election I think we will see all candidates attempting to create such a base of support. Makes a lot of sense - in a democracy. And it begins to make simple party affiliation less of a factor. That would be a very very good result.
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Sean Jones
climber
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Apr 20, 2009 - 11:18am PT
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I dare anyone or 10 or even a hundred of you to go into his possition and clean this mess up. Get better ratings.......
He's in deeper than anyone on Earth. Toughest job on Earth.
The support that got him in there needs to stay there. Everone pushed so hard to get him in and now it's party time again. Everyone in this country is as much to blame as anything or anyone.
Everyone needs to be up off their ass and pushing as hard as we want to see him push. Alone he's nothing. You want to see change....get off this computer, off your ass, and go make it happen....Right now.
With that said.... I better get off this thing myself.....listen to myself.....and go fix the planet right now.
To think, my plans were to go climb today....guess I have to go do something else now that I blew my mouth off..........
Bummer.
Sean.
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bookworm
Social climber
Falls Church, VA
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Apr 20, 2009 - 11:28am PT
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"What do you propose to do if Iran then gives us the now popular one finger salute?"
jstan, they've been giving us the finger since they took our people hostage in 1979...remember that little act of war?
i don't follow your logic...you seem to be saying that meeting with no preconditions is a guarantee against war? or, at least, that if we refuse to meet with them, it means we're going to start a war?
i'm simply saying that we should not meet with any nation that repeatedly calls for the destruction of one of our allies...and i criticize barry for promising to meet with mahmoud despite his anti-israel and racist rhetoric, bowing to the saudi king, and shaking hands and accepting an anti-american gift from hugo
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dirtbag
climber
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Apr 20, 2009 - 11:31am PT
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"oh, beautiful...obama's own fiscal responsibility is on full display today and should serve as an excellent example for those greedy corporate types...obama is demanding $100 million in total cuts from all of his agencies...that amounts to"
Bookworm, I also thought "Why bother?"
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
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Apr 20, 2009 - 11:47am PT
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"jstan, they've been giving us the finger since they took our people hostage in 1979...remember that little act of war? "
Yeah I mean what did we ever do to them? It's not like they democratically elected a leader and then we had the CIA overthrow (kill) him and then prop up a fairly brutal dictator in his place oh wait....
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dirtbag
climber
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Apr 20, 2009 - 11:53am PT
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"Yeah I mean what did we ever do to them? It's not like they democratically elected a leader and then we had the CIA overthrow (kill) him and then prop up a fairly brutal dictator in his place oh wait.... "
Funny how we imposed an emabargo against one dictatorship, Cuba, but never against the Shah's Iran.
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jstan
climber
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Apr 20, 2009 - 12:19pm PT
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Worm:
A little history you might find interesting:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1953_Iranian_coup_d'état
“The 1953 Iranian Coup d’état was the Western covert operation that deposed the democratically-elected Government of Prime Minister Mohammed Mosaddeq; [1][2][3] the CIA and MI6 effected it by aiding and abetting pro-West Iranians and mutinous Iranian army officers.”……..
End of Excerpt
To begin, in Life there is no guarantee against anything, and especially no guarantee against war. Life involves, if you are lucky, only choices between various alternatives, generally none of them desirable. Making a choice is a process in which you look at all options. All options. Now when a country refuses to talk with an “adversary” you can conclude only they have found an acceptable course of action and they are proceeding with it. In the event that this presumed course of action never materializes you are left only with a question of competence.
When you set a precondition of substance you tell the adversary they have no power to affect their future. When you do this you better have your ducks in a row.
I have seen reports in the media estimating the delay that we could impose by trying to destroy Iran’s purification facility from the air. Something like three years. Perhaps a third of the eight years we have just wasted. So it is I conclude we are talking invasion and long term occupation of Iran, under opposition from Russia and possibly even China. Are you personally prepared to join up? That’s what it comes down to, I think.
Now the truth of it is Iran’s oil resources are now sufficiently depleted that their long term future is more questionable than is our own. That’s the key. Discussions with Iran and others may allow everyone to feel their long term future is receiving some consideration. Once that is happening really hard questions may soften, just a little bit. The Iranian situation has been building for fifty years.
A quick easy air strike has never been in the cards.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Apr 20, 2009 - 02:58pm PT
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Oh wormy...I feel your pain
It was my pain in watching the Bush administration screw up the nation and it's values for 8 long years. I typed and typed on Supertopo. I was concerned about our future.
Maybe you were much happier with the way things were going then..."oh to return to the halcyon days of Bush Administration fiscal responsibility and the positive results of their tough stances!"
It's going to be a long 4 to 8 years for you. You'll feel vindicated too cause the economy is destined for hell no matter what Obama does and our diminished power will change the clout that we've lorded over the world.
Probably best to get some "preemptive" blood pressure medicine cause if you listen to conservative media, the coming years are going to be a long ordeal of frying in your own fat with little you can do about it.
Me, I'm happy to be on the sinking ship with you, and that our captain is the least of the evils the status quo had to offer us that we the sheep could have elected.
Peace
Karl
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bookworm
Social climber
Falls Church, VA
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Apr 20, 2009 - 04:12pm PT
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"the least of the evils"
a bow to the saudi king, the tyrant who oppresses women, homosexuals, and christians (wait, you probably like that last one)
a handshake and gratitude to hugo chavez, the tyrant who destroyed a democratic state with a vibrant economy
promises of understanding and cooperation with the president of iran, a vile anti-semitic who continues to call for the destruction of one of our staunchest allies and who provides financial support to terrorist organizations (hamas and hezbollah) and whose thugs have helped to kill american troops in iraq
calls for disarmament the same day noko (the tyrannical regime that starves its own people) tests a long-range ballistic missile in open violation of un resolutions
disparagement of the monroe doctrine, which was specifically set up to protect fledgling democracies in latin america from european imperialists (which either shows barry's true feelings on democracy or his utter ignorance concerning american history)
official orders to stop using the term "terrorist" when talking about people who strap bombs to themselves and blow up women and children but officially using the word "terrorist" when referring to pro-life supporters, opponents of ILLEGAL immigration, and VETS (who willingly risked their lives to protect america)
i could go on, but i think this illustrates the irony in your use of the word "lesser"
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
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Apr 20, 2009 - 04:13pm PT
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To quote Jon Stewart: "Pace your rage. It's only been 10 weeks."
Bookworm: Wow it's a snarky column written by some guy I don't know about who is pretending to be victimized by Obama (and everyone else apparently) for being a conservative. For the "party of responsibility" there are two things that Republicans seem to be really excellent at: playing the victim and blaming other people. Thanks for linking this. It's a good reminder of why things aren't going so well for the RNC.
*edit* Also, nice laundry list of dramatic but utterly meaningless things. Do you really think that agreeing to reduce our absurd number of nuclear weapons puts us at greater risk from North Korea? I mean really?
Also, you also clearly haven't "gotten" what Obama is about in terms of diplomacy. The Bush Years of shitting on anyone who disagreed with us didn't work. We tried it. Really hard. I mean there is poop EVERYWHERE from all the shitting we did. The American people saw it was time to try acting like adults, so Obama is doing exactly that. Treating other people with respect, and then firmly asserting American power. Why don't you wait for a couple years and see if it works before you twist your panties so firmly as if you know exactly how this should all go. Better yet, why not run for President?
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Apr 20, 2009 - 04:43pm PT
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I just read that Obama wiped his ass this morning with seven sheets of toilet paper.
Now everyone, wait about an hour. Give Red State.com and Fox News and Glen Beck and the RNC enough time to formulate their oppositions to this latest Obama wrongdoing. Ok, everyone on page?
He SHOULD have used SIX sheets, he is "extravagent", the big government paid for it, so he is a SOCIALIST.
He is skinny, so he has "bony fingers". He has a HIDDEN agenda.
Hey, don't forget, call him "barry" because that was his nickname in high school. That should be a nice quiet way of mocking him.
YES, I f*#king hate dumb ass, ignorant, simple minded Republicans. They got NOTHING, but ignorant irrational HATE.
Hate for everything Obama does, looks like, acts.
Nothing matters, he cannot do ANY f*#king thing right in their SIMPLE MINDED, HATEUL, DUMB ASS, conservative no minds.
Later, I will tell you how I really feel, no holding back.
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jstan
climber
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Apr 20, 2009 - 04:51pm PT
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Speaking as a classic Republican and a believer in the two party system there is both promise and danger in the current state of politics.
For so long as those laying claim to being Republican also speak palpably from rage and disappointment while advancing reactive positions that, I have to say I feel, evidence tortured logic, we delay our return to a two party system. That's a negative.
To the degree that the loss of a two party system encourages citizens, each, to think through our options and to take personal responsibility for their decisions, we have a very substantial positive.
If there is a function to threads such as this, it may be that of giving us practice in regaining our command of the process by which we make choices.
We should not expect it to be either quick - or easy.
How might it all play out? Based upon current events conservatives have eventually to come to believe following the "party line" does not contribute to their chances of taking a constructive role in our public life. This will free them to speak to their principles, the part of the Republican Party that has always been its greatest strength.
When that comes to pass people who believe in the two party system and want to see it restored will find themselves supporting both parties. It is at that point, I for one, feel we will see informal citizen discussions such as this, take a quantum leap in their effectiveness.
That time has not yet arrived.
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just passing thru
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 20, 2009 - 04:52pm PT
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Norton, how many republicans do you personally know?
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the Fet
Supercaliyosemistic climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Apr 20, 2009 - 05:06pm PT
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If the economy improves at all, or if Newt or Sarah runs, or if the Republicans continue to ignore the center, Obama will be re-elected, and I will laugh and laugh.
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
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Apr 20, 2009 - 05:20pm PT
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jstan-
Great post and I'd really love an honest discussion with Republicans who are speaking from their core values instead of playing these silly political contrivance games we always do. Everyone forgets that finding meaningful solutions through understanding and compromise is the important thing, not reppin your party like it's a street gang.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Apr 20, 2009 - 06:03pm PT
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Just passing, interesting question.
I own and operate two retail stores in Santa Fe. As a result, I know a lot of fellow small business owners in this city, I'd say the number who identify themselves as Republicans at Chamber of Commerce meetings is very high,guessing about 70% or something.
I have coffee with them as a group of around 20, so I get a good earful of their opinions on all things business related and their political thoughts, who they vote for, why, what they like and dislike.
So to answer, I am exposed to a significant number of folks who identify themselves as Republicans, on a regular basis.
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jstan
climber
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Apr 20, 2009 - 06:16pm PT
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Thanks HDDJ.
OK I am going to pull over my shoulders the cape of “True Republicanism.” No more crap. Let’s take a little problem.
Social Security
I paid into the system at the maximum for a little more than twenty years. When the system was originally sold it was sold not as a tax but a system that would return value to its contributors. This was a contract and nobody can unilaterally modify an existing contract. That’s as Republican as one can get. And it is based upon honoring one’s word.
So if we are looking at a change to that contract, it has to come from agreements between both parties.
When I retired I calculated the present value of my SS Benefits in constant dollars. I calculated I would receive a known percentage of what I had paid in at the current rates. One way to achieve a consensus is for the government to run its computers, do the same for everyone based on a reasonable discount rate and inflation values, and determine what the new return rate should be if the system is to continue serving us. Then they have to come to us, the other party in the contract, and ask for approval.
If I vote against the proposal I am accepting future generations will face great pain and uncertainty as a result of my vote when the system eventually becomes insolvent.
The citizens get to decide.
After all of this pain citizens will realize they absolutely must turn out of Congress all of those members willing to graft liabilities onto an existing contract without also providing the funding. Indeed, such prohibitions need to be specifically included in the enabling legislation.
Furthermore that enabling legislation needs to total less than 2000 pages so that its content is not thereby concealed. I would recommend a limit of fifty pages as formatted for the Federal Register.
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