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bc
climber
Prescott, AZ
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Jul 10, 2008 - 10:25pm PT
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Lynne, I was making a joke. My comment was not directed at anyone in particular ;-)
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Social climber
valley center, ca
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Jul 10, 2008 - 10:38pm PT
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Thank you for acknowledging "my take". I deplore the term religion and do not apply it to my life.
Since there are no...one and one make two...facts for either side I can blend alot from both positions. But why so consumed over something not proveable? Geez, if we spent this much energy helping Mortenson establish schools...well that would be commendable.
Discussion is good, no doubt. Attack ending in ill will is not only pointless, but hinders the stuff we need to help one another and survive the tough stuff thrown at us.
Bottom line: Jesus and his words made a HUGE difference in my life, which then made a huge difference in many other lives...marriages saved and restored, suicides precluded, drug, smoking and alcohol harmful to people gotten rid of....can't beat something that makes a person's life great.
Or can we, for the sake of argument?
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WandaFuca
Gym climber
San Fernando Lamas
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Jul 10, 2008 - 11:05pm PT
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On an individual (micro-) level, faith may be useful, but many people, myself included, believe that dogmatic religion at the society-wide (macro-) level does more harm than good.
Some agnostics and atheists can sympathize with the individual of faith one moment and then lash out at him or her in the next when they see that individual of faith as a representative of something massive and destructive; dogmatic religion.
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Social climber
valley center, ca
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Jul 10, 2008 - 11:21pm PT
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I must just be a silly person, and I love and respect (about) everyone...but I am giggling cause so many people say to me on ST .... check your email....like I never check my email...gigggles.....it's the first thing I check after my quiet time every morning. hehehe- Y'all have a gute nacht.
Lynners
OBTW...Note that still no one has addressed my comment.
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Social climber
valley center, ca
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Jul 11, 2008 - 12:03am PT
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Well, I think I'm in the wrong crowd...I thought we were all ST friends discussing a topic....I've never even heard of a "throw down" email address.
I just want to go CLIMBING.....and thank GOD I most likely will this weekend. What up with y'all? Lighten up ! Ever heard of Love one Another? Lynnie
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Jul 11, 2008 - 12:07am PT
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So Jody, the gravity that you "feel" is described by a different equation than the gravity that the earth feels from the sun... I'm wondering how you know it is the same, or do you know it's the same.
Do you feel the gravitational attraction from the sun? How do you know it is there? you have no sense of it.
I don't believe in thermodynamics, I understand it and can apply when I do calculations of physical systems. I understand its fundamentals, I understand its range of applicability and I understand where it is inappropriate to apply. Do you understand it?
Before you answer that, answer the stuff about gravity so we can get along to the next step.
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UncleDoug
Social climber
N. lake Tahoe
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Jul 11, 2008 - 12:08am PT
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"Bottom line: Jesus and his words made a HUGE difference in my life, which then made a huge difference in many other lives...marriages saved and restored, suicides precluded, drug, smoking and alcohol harmful to people gotten rid of....can't beat something that makes a person's life great."
Lynne,
Amen to that (even though I'm an agnostic)
If Jesus has made a positive effect on your life right on!
But what do you say to someone, who was confirmed the Lutheran church, who feels that their life is better with out "god" in their lives?
Can you, or anyone who follows the teachings of christ, give the same level of respect to those that do not believe that you are asking of them?
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Social climber
valley center, ca
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Jul 11, 2008 - 12:08am PT
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OBTW...still no one has addressed my last several comments.
Easy to post non sequitur's but it takes a thinking person to respond to the specific item spoken or addressed.
Smiles, Lynne
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Jul 11, 2008 - 12:30am PT
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The point is, you don't feel the gravity from the sun... Newton said, however, that it was the "same" gravity as the one on earth.
How do you "prove" it? No one has ever gone to the sun and jumped off a cliff there and reported back.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Jul 11, 2008 - 12:47am PT
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so Newton reasoned if the law of universal gravitation is correct, that you should be able to calculate the gravitational force we experience on the earth.
He had to show that you could consider the entire mass of the earth, M, assuming it a spherical earth, was as if it were all at the center. You are sitting one earth radius R.
The universal force law:
F(r) = G M m/rē
becomes
F(R) = (G M/Rē) m
(G M/Rē) is constant if the height above the earth h is small compared to the earth radius R.
which recovers the gravity you are familiar with...
For this Newton not only founded modern physics, but modern mathematics too.
So Jody, how does the earth feel the sun's gravity so far away from it?
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Social climber
valley center, ca
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Jul 11, 2008 - 12:47am PT
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Uncle Doug, Of course, give you great respect even if we do not agree.
It is not about me convincing you that my way is the only way and the right way....I am only telling what Jesus has done in my life to make me who I am today.
What's crazy and what I call a "holy coincidence" is that I too was a baptized and confirmed member of the lutheran church. We won't go there... to the words b. and c. But i found out later how alive Jesus is and he cared enough to do some incredible miracles for me....until he allowed my husband to die @ 6 months ago....
My faith after that huge incident, still way intact, albeit a refining of what I believe, Jesus has taken care of Lynne in Lynne's life part two. God is good .... if you let him be.....to you....keep in touch. Lynnie
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UncleDoug
Social climber
N. lake Tahoe
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Jul 11, 2008 - 01:07am PT
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Lynne,
Whoa, my deepest sympathy to you in regards to your husband.
And I'm glad that your faith is as strong or stronger after all that.
Regardless of what we believe in, as long as it makes the person "better", or maybe it should be "in a positive direction", more power to it.
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Social climber
valley center, ca
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Jul 11, 2008 - 01:13am PT
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Ed and Jody, soul music vs. hard rock ...heavy metal etc.
Maybe not, just soul....peace and joy, Linners.
Learning a new life, working to climb. Life is eye opening, crazy, refreshingly good and more than one can push on another human...we can share our wisdom and knowledge...we cannot change a heart or mind....
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UncleDoug
Social climber
N. lake Tahoe
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Jul 11, 2008 - 01:21am PT
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Jody,
Do you or anyone you know get flu shots?
Influenza vaccines are a prime example of evolution in-action.
The vaccine is reformulated every year to adapt to the changes in the flu virus.
From the CDC
"Each year the influenza virus changes and different strains become dominant. Due to the high mutation rate of the virus a particular vaccine formulation usually works for only about a year. The World Health Organization coordinates the contents of the vaccine each year to contain the most likely strains of the virus to attack the next year."
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Mimi
climber
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Jul 11, 2008 - 01:29am PT
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Wallace and Darwin. Two men to have at the dinner table for a choice night of talking shop. Evolution. Yeah!
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WBraun
climber
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Jul 11, 2008 - 01:34am PT
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If the scientists biology and chemistry are so advanced, why don't they create something?
They claim they may be able to create life in the future, but why in the future?
Life is already created. Is science based on the future?
They have to accept that they do not know what the truth actually is.
They can't even produce a spear of grass through their biological or chemical experiments. Nonetheless they are claiming that the creation is produced by some chemical or biological method.
Why does no one question all this nonsense?
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Jul 11, 2008 - 01:43am PT
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Well I suspect that you can't answer the question, "how does the gravity of the sun get to the earth"
and neither could Newton. But although he didn't have a direct "proof" of that mechanism, he didn't dismiss his theory.
Why? because the law of universal gravitation allowed him (and others later) to calculate with great accuracy the motion of the planes, and moons and other solar system objects.
How did he know it was the right theory of gravity? Because he could use it to explain many other phenomena observed around him.
Cavendish did an experiment to directly measure the universal law in the laboratory, a very difficult measurement because the force of gravity is so small. But he verified the aspects of the law, the bi-linear mass terms, the 1/rē distance dependence, he measured the constant G.
But still, how do you know this is the same thing here as it is 5 billion light years away? But by assuming that that is true, and applying Newton's law of gravity, it is possible to predict the motion of stars, and matter in the universe.
In fact, the force of gravity effects every corner of the universe.. this force has an infinite range, that force is acting on you right now from billions of light years away. It is so feeble as to not be "sensible" but it is there.
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UncleDoug
Social climber
N. lake Tahoe
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Jul 11, 2008 - 01:55am PT
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"So, changes in the flu virus is somehow definitive proof of fish becoming birds and that apes and man have common ancestors?"
Jody,
Yes, when taken in the context of all the reasoning that has been performed to come to the conclusion that the flu vaccine needs to be reformulated each year to compensate for the changes in the flu virus. If it were not for the concept of evolution none of this re-formulation would be possible. The origins of the theory of evolution were based on observations of fossil records of plants and animals much larger and more complex than viruses, yet the same principals of evolutionary processes were applied to viruses to come to the conclusion that the flu vaccine needs to be changes to compensate for the evolving virus.
Now vice-versa this back to more complex beings.....
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Jul 11, 2008 - 01:58am PT
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Wanda wrote,
"Some religious people need very definite boundaries between right and wrong, and they demand definite proof (which is never enough, no matter how much is provided) of anything which contradicts their literalist interpretation of their religion, and threatens their rigid worldview, which to them is self-evident and requires no proof, nor a scrap of real evidence."
Very good.
Now apply that to scientific people who need absolute proof that God exist. Yet they forget to answer the question of "who or what created the dirt" out of which life evolved. For once I am sort of on Jody's side. Da...aaaang haha.
I believe we evolve. I also believe we devolve, which is the story of the fall of mankind in the book of Genesis. I don't believe we evolved from a lower species such an ape. I believe animals were created separate from man. I believe the earth is much older then 10,000 years. I don't know how old, but certainly millions if not billions of years old. Can I prove this? nope. I think evolution in the form of natural selection plays a role in how life on this planet operates, but it does not explain what and where everything out of which we evolved came from. So perhaps I am not so much on Jody's side, if there is such a thing, since I accept natural selection as part of the process. Spiritualist would call that the school of hard knocks.
I believe that God created the heavens and the earth and the animals and the planets. Then he gave it to us, and its current condition is the result of our consciousness. It evolved or devolved as our consciousness evolved or devolved. The story of Adam and Eve is the story of man devolving from a higher state. The story of Jesus is the story of a man evolving back into a higher being, one that has eternal life. Jesus is a man who has mastered the material world by being one with the spiritual world. "Seek ye first the kingdom of God and his righteousness and all these things will be added unto you".
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Uncledoug, don't confuse religion with what God is. Spiritualist say that God is Love. If you haven't experienced this, then you haven't experienced God, you experienced mans interpretation of God, which is religion. Most definitely you are better off without most mens interpretation of God. Jesus describe the leaders of the church in his day as the blind leaders of the blind, who end up in the ditch.
I was raised Southern Baptist so I commiserate with your Luthitudedness.
Read "I Love Jesus, I Hate Christianity" by Kim Michaels. for a different prospective on God.
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